According to Hoyle [Comments Closed]
According to the Charlotte Observer, state senator David Hoyle is thinking about retiring.
State Sen. David Hoyle, a Gaston County Democrat, had planned to announce this week whether he would run for his ninth two-year term. He said that scheduling conflicts have delayed his decision and he plans to take more time."One day, I say I'll go in for another term. Another day, I'm just tired," he said.
Hoyle, 68, was ranked the third most effective senator in Raleigh in the most recent survey of legislators, lobbyists and capitol journalists. He is co-chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, which oversees tax policy, and is a keystone of the Democrats' pro-business faction.
That would be the same pro-business faction we can thank for cutting taxes on rich North Carolinians while voting to continue a regressive sales tax increase across the board. The same pro-business faction that ignored coastal policy and voted to allow rich homeowners at Figure Eight island to "harden" their beach to protect their multimillion dollar homes. And the same pro-business faction that voted to give $40+ million in taxpayer dollars to two tire companies, one of which wasn't even asking for the handout.
Why don't we all send a nice little note to Mr. Hoyle, thanking him for his years of service, and explaining that We the People just can't afford him any more. Be polite, though, otherwise the power-hungry old man might just stick around to spite us.
I'm sure Hoyle's a nice guy
and someone will come along and say what a good senator he's been. That may be, but I'm flat out sick of good senators who sell out the public in favor of special interests nearly every time they vote. As chair of the Senate Finance Committee, Hoyle was a ringleader in pushing through the tax cut on those who need it least.
I hope he retires.
AMEN
I'd have more to say about Hoyle but not so close to Thanksgiving.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Hoyle needs to retire
Hoyle is a victim of doing the bidding for others and needs to move on. He is not alone.
I will never understand Democrats
who give away stuff to Big Bidness. Never. Goes against everything Democrats are supposed to stand for. In my understanding.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
And in the words of a wise man,
"To my knowledge" :-))
They are all beholden to it
Democrats and Republicans are beholden to big business because they have powerful lobbies that are sources of campaign dollars and votes. Easley has been very guilty of this during his tenure as governor, just as the Republican State Legislature here in South Carolina has been as well. Governor Sanford has vetoed many corporate welfare bills and has had them easily overridden by both parties.
Carolina Politics Online
Naderites, Anglicoites What's the difference?
In 2000, the Naderites gave the White House to George W. Bush.
If left up to Anglico and his crowd in North Carolina , the North Carolina Senate will be taken over by the Republicans. If David Hoyle does not run, his seat will be filled by a rightwing Republican. If David Hoyle does not run, the Republicans will have a clear path to gaining majority control of the North Carolina Senate. Remember Anglico is now an "independent" touting the merits of Republican gubernatorial candidate Robert Orr.
You should come by more often
As I've reported on several occasions, the form I sent in to change my registration was returned because of insufficient postage. I'm still a registered Democrat.
Care to try again?
So, Hoyle has to run because whaaaa???
A few questions "NCAdvocate,"
David Hoyle's absence could *conceivably* be filled by another Democrat, no? You say it's just absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for Democrats to hold that seat without Hoyle?
You know what? I'd be glad to take that chance. I'm sick to death of hypocrites like Hoyle and his ilk.
Meanwhile, I'm supposed to distrust everything Anglico has to say now because he said he wanted to register as an Independent and because he likes Robert Orr?
Was that post what you call advocacy?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Large Majority
The Democrats hold a 31 to 19 seat majority in the State Senate. How exactly does that give Republicans a "clear path to gaining majority control" by Hoyle not running again?
Carolina Politics Online
So now, because we question some votes of some Dems,
we're Anglicoites?
BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
That's a good one. Got any more ways to deflect so we don't have to discuss real issues?
No, really - let's see what you've got.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Sales Taxes are not Regressive
I have to disagree with your assertion that sales taxes are regressive. It is the wealthy that pay the majority of sales taxes because they have more purchasing power than those who have less expendable income. Many states have a higher sales tax in lieu of an income tax. Tennessee's is 7% (6% for food), Florida is at 6%, and Texas is at 6.25% and there aren't crowds of homeless lining the streets because of the sales tax rates. North Carolina's sales tax rate isn't much less, being at 4.25% (4% for food) and yet still socks us with an income tax of anywhere between 6% and 8.25%.
North Carolina is the highest taxed state in the southeast and that is what needs to be addressed to help families. Anyone making over $12,750 a year is in at minimum the 7% bracket. That is way too high.
Mike Gravel is running on a platform to eliminate the Federal Income Tax and replace it with a National Sales Tax instead because he recognizes the benefits of that system rather than the income based system we have today which has resulted in a tax code so complicated that not even IRS agents completely understand it.
Carolina Politics Online
Sales Taxes are Regressive
Sales taxes are most certainly regressive in that poorer people pay a larger percentage of their income than richer people.
Even the Flat Tax or National Sales Tax proposals recognize this by including income based rebates for lower incomes.
For the record, the highest tax burden honor in the southeast consistently goes to South Carolina, not North Carolina. The Tax Foundation and John Locke Foundation would like to give that honor to North Carolina but their rankings are generally skewed towards states whose tax system most resemble a flat tax model and those which omit entire tax methods such as Florida, with no income tax. Florida has been heavily dependent on property tax and its revenue stream has suffered from that reliance.
Income tax rates cannot be properly discussed without comparing deductions and other variables such as whether rates apply to adjusted gross income or federal taxable income.
Bookmark this comment
Warren Buffett says Progressive Sales Tax = FairTax
Recently, Warren Buffett came out in favor of replacing the income tax with a progressive sales tax much like the FairTax called for by candidate-Messrs. Gravel (D) and Huckabee (R).
The effective tax rate percentages, that different income groups would pay under the FairTax, are calculated by crediting the monthly "prebate" (advance rebate of projected tax on necessities) against total monthly spending of citizen families (1 member and greater, Dept. of HHS poverty-level data; a single person receiving ~$200/mo, a family of four, ~$500/mo, in addition to working earners receiving paychecks with no Federal deductions) Prof.'s Kotlikoff and Rapson (10/06) concluded,
Further, per Jokischa and Kotlikoff (circa 2006?) ...
There is no reasonable equity of distribution under the current INCOME tax system.
One finds that the current system, ostensibly regulated by the Internal Revenue Code, is in fact poorly regulated because of continually increasing complexity (the effect of tax favors from politicians, through lobbyists, to favored corporations and other special interests) stemming from the desire by those holding government position to steer public behavior using tax code "carrots." The Tax Code has become a "tinkerer's paradise" for 53% of the lobbyists who game it in Washington DC. It's a lucrative business, and the U.S. TAXPAYER pays for ALL of it in higher prices (i.e., a hidden tax which is incomprehensible to the average working person).
We have seen how 100 years of this type of behavior has eroded the Nation's currency and the purchasing power of working family incomes. "Visionist," Tom Frey believes the current tax system will simply collapse; and economist Laurence Kotlikoff heralds - short of enactment of FairTax (or an otherwise unlikely change in spending habits) - the U.S. will shortly face an irrevocable economic breakdown. (Kotlikoff believes that passage of the FairTax can stave off the economic ruin we're facing, but would be surprised to see it happen.)
So how much revenue would the government realize
from implementing this Fair tax? Any estimates done on that?
Person County Democrats
Revenue-neutral tax replacement
FairTax rate is a revenue-neutral consumption tax ( national sales tax ) proposal. The proposed 23 cents out of every retail dollar spent is what is deemed sufficient to both replace current revenues while providing monthly prebates to US citizens (a monthly check to untax poverty-level spending based on Dept. of HHS data; single person ~$200/mo, family of four ~$500/mo.)
30%
It's a 30% tax not a 23% tax. Let's get that semantic antic out of the way.
23+77 = 100
23/77 = 29.87%
Big surprise! Billionaire supports non-income-related tax!
Collecting only sales tax is ludicrous. Do you think all the millionaires and billionaires buy enough stuff to represent even a fraction of what they currently pay in taxes?
You want fairness in taxation, bring the Capital Gains tax rate up to where it should be. Taxing sales exclusively will only keep that big money out of circulation even more than it is now, while punishing all the rest of us.
Stop Demagoguing
Are you familiar with the Fair Tax plan that Ian brings up? It underwent a 12 year study before it was officially put forth as a bill to address just about any possible criticism someone could come out with. What makes collecting only sales taxes ludicrous? Where is your data source for such a claim? You don't have one. You're demagoguing an issue you know little to nothing about out of your own ignorance simply because you don't like the sound of it.
As far as Capital Gains taxes go, how is raising those any more fair? What, to screw over those evil rich people who gave you your job? What about all the middle class families that invest? There are plenty out there, like me. I make under $50,000 a year and I invest in the stock market. It's helped me save up for a down payment on a house and you want to go and raise my tax rate on it to put my opportunity of home ownership even further out into the future? I'm certainly no millionaire so who are you trying to bend over and screw exactly?
I want to help the poor in this country and the way to do that is self-empowerment, not more addiction to government programs. How does someone live in freedom if they're dependent on the government to put food on the table? Johnson's "Great Society" programs have been around for 40 years and yet there are still millions of Americans living off of the government in squaller instead of providing for themselves so those programs don't seem to have worked real well. Get rid of the income tax and that will be a huge step to move people out of poverty in America. Gravel recognizes it as does Warren Buffet, another Democrat, and as Ian pointed out Mike Huckabee, who is a Republican, but had a good record on social service issues as governor of Arkansas.
Carolina Politics Online
The word you're looking for is
The word you're looking for is squalor. I know it's nitpicking. I know it's probably beside the point. But if you're going to advocate for a complete overhaul of the system of tax in this country, perhaps you should also check yourself on easy misspellings that can be caught by the eye as well as by a spell checker. For me, you lose your credibility because I already disagree with you, and this gives me an easy reason to dismiss you. You are uneducated, and don't have the respect for your reading audience to bother with a spell-check.
Yup - I'm that picky about grammar and spelling.
Now - on to your point -
It's not Johnson's Great Society that has kept people living in squalor. It is lack of education, lack opportunity, and lack of hope. Lack of hope has nothing to do with the income tax structure, and everything to do with the distribution of wealth. A "fair tax" would not redistribute wealth in the way you suggest, but by taxing a higher portion of the income of the poor, would create an even larger illicit market for goods and services than there is now where people would attempt to avoid paying sales tax. Crime would become an even larger problem, and with reduced revenue, it would be even harder for our police forces to fight it. Education would be harder to fund, and it would become even more difficult for the middle classes to afford what they needed. The wealthy, with their greater disposable income, would not be affected.
Same story, different chapter.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Everybody has access to
Everybody has access to education and has had it for decades. Sure, public education in this country has a lot of problems and we could go on all day about what they are and how to address them, but the bottom line is a motivated person will get the most out of it they can. If they don't, that is there choice not to do so. Regarding lack of opportunity, your assertion that it is lacking is rubbish. America is the land of opportunity. I grew up in a crappy neighborhood, attended a mediocre high school and had to put myself through college by working full time and taking classes here and there. It took me a lot longer than most of my friends and it was a lot harder but I still did it. I could have easily sat back and did nothing and blamed someone else for my circumstances, but I didn't. I seized the opportunity that was out there and if I could do it so can everyone else. As far as hope goes, again that comes down to your own attitude. You can choose to sit around and blame others for your circumstances or you can try to change them.
This is one of the reasons why I went independent. The Democratic Party threw out their work ethic of the Roosevelt days and turned to a platform that abdicated all facets of personal responsibility and accountability. Today it's now a message of your shortcomings being someone else's fault. As Zell Miller put it, I didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left me.
Regarding the Fair Tax, it would not tax a higher portion of the poors' incomes. The tax would be paid only on new goods and services at the retail level (so used goods are tax free), thus eradicating all the hidden taxes we pay that get tacked on throughout different levels of production. With the cost of producing goods and services dramatically cheaper the base retail prices would drop. The lower price with the new 30% added sales tax would keep prices relatively static to where they are today, according to the study, the difference being you now have 100% of your paycheck to buy the same product at the same price it was prior to having 70% of it. Lower income people now have more purchasing power. Furthermore, the Fair Tax bill would provide a monthly prebate to all Americans on all sales taxes paid up to poverty level, so those at or below poverty level would pay no sales tax at all.
Concerning tax avoidance, I can't foresee any easy method to avoid paying a sales tax when it's being collected from you by the seller at the time of purchase. It is the seller who is responsible for collecting the tax and if they fail to do so the IRS will still be around to catch them on it, just like they do today, only the IRS will have their hands in the business entity, rather than our personal lives. The rest of your post is nothing more than your own speculation with no basis of fact to back it up.
It is ironic that you berate me and belittle my education simply because I misspelled one word, a fault of being a human being, while at the same time you make commentary based on complete ignorance of a bill you clearly have never read.
Carolina Politics Online
Access?
Access? Yes -- there has been access to education. But it has not been equal. Having spent time student teaching and studying in some of the poorest counties in West Virginia, I can tell you -- it doesn't matter what happens in the school if the child who shows up there is hungry. Or worried about what is happening at home. Abraham Maslow had it right. If basic needs are not met, higher needs can never be addressed.
Even in the county I live in now, I can see a difference in schools based on their location in the county and the income of the families they serve. It should not be that way but it is. 40 years is not enough time to counter hundreds of years of poverty and inequality. It's foolish to think otherwise.
It's pretty simple, really. If I make $20,000 a year, and I spend say, $5000 on new goods, that's a full 25% of my income being taxed. If I make $200,000 a year, and spend $20,000 on new goods, I'm still buying a lot more than my much poorer neighbor, but I'm only being taxed on 10% of my income. Do the math. It's not a fair tax. It unequally targets low income earners because less of their income is spent on luxury items than on necessities. I don't understand why that's so difficult to see, unless there are provisions in the fair tax to exempt food, gasoline, clothing, textbooks, school supplies, and other necessities from this tax. If that's the case, please let me know.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Yeah, I'm the one that's ignorant...
You're worried about saving up enough money for the down payment on a house, but you're advocating making that house cost 23% more in non-equitable money?
It's fricking income, okay? Should investment income be taxed at a lower rate than ditch-digging, coal mining, janitorial work or any other form of actual labor?
What is that, some Republican form of "tough love"? Help them by not helping at all? As far as the food on the table thing, let me tell you what's going to happen—when it goes up 23%, our farmers are going to turn off their tractors and up their dose of Canadian anti-depressants, because we will end up importing our food exclusively from foreign growers so shoppers can afford to feed their kids.
This is not about being "fair", it's just another effort to tear down the U.S. government and replace it with churches and gun-toting, Liberty Dollar-spending idiots.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about the subject. Feel free to call me anything you want, just try not to swallow your tongue.
In Response to the Naderites/Anglicoites
So why hasn't Anglico sent his registration as an independent back to the Board of Elections? It more accurately reflects his political allegiance.
David Hoyle supports most Democratic positions and is certainly more of a Democrat than Robert Orr, who the webmaster of this site has repeatedly promoted. Senator Hoyle is a hypocrite and Anglico is not. Give me a break.
Make no mistake about it, the odds are extremely high that Senator Hoyle's seat will go Republican if he retires. His district has had one of the highest if not the highest vote margins, in favor of George W. Bush in both 2000 and 2004. His diatrict has voted for every Republican over every Democrat in every major race since at least 2000.
The Senate currently has a 31 to 19 vote majority in the Senate. A swing of 6 Senate seats puts the body in the hands of the Republicans.
Democratic Senator Goss and Democratic Senator Foriest both were elected in 2006 when Democrats had a historic year as did Republicans in 1994. Even if the Democrats have a big year next year, their districts will likely vote for George Bush making their re-elections very difficult.
Democratic Senator Joe Sam Queen originally won his seat in 2002 only to lose it as a result of George Bush's coattails in 2004. He regained his seat in 2006 but again will have to hold it as his district will likely vote Republican at the national level in 2008.
Republican Representative Debbie Clary is running for the seat held by Senator Dalton who is running for Leiutenant Governot. She is the odds on favorite to win this sear similar to the way Republican Representative Jean Preston iwon the seat held by Democratic Senator Scott Thomas who resigned to become District Attorney. This seat was won by a Republican n a banner Democratic year last year.
Democratic Senator Soles only won his seat by 2000 votes last year and will now be running against an opponent who could benefit from Republican coattails in an area that is trending strongly Republican. He was the only Democratic Senator who won by a smaller margin than the margin he or she held in 2004.
I've identified 5 very vuknerable seats. As I said if Hoyle retires, there is a clear path for a Republican takeover of the Senate in 2006 even if the Democrats do well next year.
So sit and your butts and send your e-mails asking Hoyle to retire as Anglico has asked you to do. But, please be honest and don't any of you who send the e-mails claim to be a Democrat.
.
You know what?
If I'm registered as a Democrat, and hold an office in my county party as a Democrat, I can damn sure claim to be one.
And you can kiss my donkey, too.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Is NC Advocat " Exxon" Hood in Republican Drag again?
You know what?
If I'm registered as a Democrat, and hold an office in my county party as a Democrat, I can damn sure claim to be one.
And you can kiss my donkey, too.* lcloud
You do understand that you are chatting with "Exxon" John Hood evil twin ncasshole! He must be bored again and still piss at this site for cleaning his clock everytime he sneaks in here.....So "Exxon" What is your hot topic on NC spin tomorrow? "Should those progressive communists at BlueNC be tase or waterboard for offending the 1 st amendment?"
"If it waddles like Locke puppet and quacks like a Art Puppet! Than it must be Blackwater Pope Goose step puppet!"
I hear the rat-a-tat-tat of a script
But that doesn't impress.
Maybe you're right. Maybe. But just as juries will fool us, so will the electorate. To pretend there's a hard and fast formula for prediction is fun -- and foolhardy.
The idea that Hoyle is occupying a sacred spot that only Hoyle can fill is counter-intuitive. Also, frankly, those of us who believe that ideas still matter are disinclined to jump into lines drawn by folks who post scripts instead of discussion points.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
I'm reconsidering.
For a couple of weeks I thought I was unaffiliated. It was weird. On one hand I really liked it, on the other I felt less free to criticize the party. So when my registration came back, I considered it a sign to rethink my position, which I am currently doing.
Unaffiliated is looking better and better.
If letters from a few progressives are enough to tilt the balance in Hoyle's retirement planning, we have far more power than I had imagined. And if there's no Party strategy in place to back up a 68-year-old committee chair, well that would be a pretty grand oversight.
2 things
I think you have confused Democrats with Republicans. If you bothered to read the site in any depth you would note that very often on this site people disagree with Anglico. And while very few people here would be considered "Naderites", the term is especially annoying, when you consider the facts of Florida.
As for vulnerability vs not, the job of this site is not to protect Senate Democratic Incumbents. That is the job of the party and the Senate caucus. The only person who posts here whose job it is to protect the Democrats you mention is Jerry Meek. And if you read this site enough you would know that Jerry very rarely comes by.
"Keep the Faith"
Senator Harris Blake is safe in Moore County
No wonder Republican Harris Blake will continue to carry the Senate seat in Moore County, a seat that represents the best opportunity for Democrats to pick up a new seat next year.
Anglico can promote Robert Orr, call for a Democratic Senator to retire retire because he isn't enough of a Democrat and the only response from the secretary of the Moore County Democratic Party is to tell me to kiss her donley.
I'm not the secretary.
I am the second vice chair.
And we don't know if Harris Blake's seat is safe - we're not even sure if Harris Blake knows if his seat is safe. We're not sure what Harris Blake knows anymore. The fact that he's still in his seat is testament to the fact that Moore County Republicans will vote for the mentally incompetent rather than actual thinking human beings.
I was responding to your absolutely ignorant assertion "don't call yourselves Democrats". You know as well as I do that there is a great range of ideology encompassing what members of the Democratic Party believe. You've got no right to assert that there is only one way to think or behave as a Democrat. I'm as much of a Democrat as Hoyle is. I'm as much of a Democrat as Jerry Meek is, and I have as much right to my opinions they do - and as you do.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
You're kidding, right?
Every time I say something good about Robert Orr, he cringes. More to the point, if you think those things I say are anything more than damning with faint praise, your judgment is suspect.
Hoyle is a Democrat. Robert Orr is not.
Ideas do matter. David Hoyle subscribes to most Democratic positions as does Representative Heath Shuler. Most progressive Democrats recognize this reality. We are fortunate that they as Democrats have been able to win in areas that Democrats have been unable to win.
And?
This site does not endorse. Anglico has been in discussions with Orr, because he finds his ideas intriguing. He actually supports Bev Perdue.
But you already knew that didnt you?
"Keep the Faith"
That's correct.
Orr had the courtesy of responding to an email and we've struck up a correspondence. He's not insane, which is a saving grace among Republican candidates these days, and he's to be commended for the way he pays attention to details. (Not sure that would be a big plus in a governor.)
But he's also contaminated by the long reach of Art Pope, which as I've said on my occasions is a kiss of death in my book.
Yes, ideas matter
That's why I like Anglico, whether or not we cohere on every issue. And that's why I dislike David Hoyle. He doesn't give a damn about principles, ideas or platforms. He is no model for Democratic values -- or any values other than those measured by dollar signs.
I do not discount the importance of "winning" in a given district. But nor do I discount the significance of a candidate's ability to represent a genuine value. Hoyle doesn't. Hoyle is hypocrite, and I'd sooner vote for a person of integrity with whom I disagree than a person like Hoyle, who represents nothing so much as the idea of holding power.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Am I missing something?
Ms. Cloud says I am ignorant( after telling me to kiss her donkey) when she states the following:
You know as well as I do that there is a great range of ideology encompassing what members of the Democratic Party believe. You've got no right to assert that there is only one way to think or behave as a Democrat
Didn't this blog piece begin with a call to ask David Hoyle to retire because of a perspective that the way he thinks or behaves is not like a Democrat?
Brunette, you make serious allegations against Senator Hoyle. Perhaps you might want to support your claim that Hoyle, represents nothing so much as the idea of holding power.
Didn't this blog piece begin
No. The original post complained about three specific pro-business votes that Hoyle had a hand in (to my knowledge). I didn't say anything about him being a Democrat. The word appears only in the news story I cited.
You brought up Democrat, not me.
I'm not down on Hoyle because he's a Democrat. I'm unhappy with his votes and his leadership in the Senate.
Missing this
Hoyle signed Grover Norquist's no new tax pledge Even if we came up with a better, fairer, tax structure he wouldn't be able to vote for it because he already pledged to conservatives not to introduce new taxes.
Hoyle had this to say about ethic laws last year:
In that election cycle he reimbursed himself $112,215.01 for unitemized expenses. So far this year he has reimbursed himself $22,112.61 for unitemized expenses. Maybe he's eating a lot of pancakes at the Salisbury IHOP on his way to and from Raleigh.
Caution, Mr. Advocate -
Well, NC Advocate, I draw my conclusions from my experience, where I've been in Raleigh, what I've witnessed, what I've been exposed to, whether I liked it or not. I doubt that Sen. Hoyle wants to throw down the gauntlet on this matter, and doubt he would want you to do so on his behalf.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
I said your comment was ignorant.
And it was.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
If Democrats can't reshape the party in the year
we finally rid ourselves of "W", we never will be able to. I don't want to be a Democrat if it means cringing in fear and putting up with people whose old ideas are dragged out year after year to keep the status very quo.
I believe I could and would vote for a Republican if her/his values aligned more closely with mine. Parties only matter if they reflect the people who care enough to participate in them.
Oh, and Giuliani has no Bushie coattails.
Have you called to support H. Res 333 Impeach Cheney Today? call 202-224-3121 & ask for your Congress member by name
Hoyle is a Democrat, Anglico is not.
So Anglico, your criticism of Senator Hoyle has absolutrly nothing to do with your Hamet soliloquy should I be an independent or not.? You take 3 votes he cast and then call for him to retire. Flynn follows up with a quote out of context and then by innuendo suggests Senator Hoyle has done something morally wromg basedon information from his campaign reports. O am familiar with 3 of the votes you raised:
First you complain about the state budget that kept the sales tax and ended the .25 increase on the income taxes of persons earning over $200,000. The initial budget presented by the Governor and passed by the House maintained both taxes. Progressive groups like the Justice Center argued against cutting the sales tax back to 7 cents because it would have resulted in a loss of revenue of over 300 million dollars at a time when there was a need to expand expenditures. The Senate's initial budget include elminating both taxes that were promised to be temporary when initially imposed. As a compromise between the Senate and the House, the final budget included an earned income tax cedit for the working poor, a historic change in tax policy for North Carolina in lieu of cutting the sales tax. The income tax cut costs about 90 million dollars and will benefot over 30,000 small businesses that are unincorporated. All Democrats voted for this compromise with the exception of one.
With regard to the Goodyear/Bridgestone incentives package, uou are incorrect when you say that Bridgestone didn't seek assistance. Governor Easley originally vetoed the bill because his Commerce Department had repeatedly told Bridgestone that there was no incentive money to protect existing jobs.
To characterize the assistance to Goodyear as a handout to big business ignores that the United Steeel Workers Union strongly supported and lobbied for this assistance. Cumberland County is a Tier 1 county with the entire 82nd Airborne across seas. The last thing that community needs to suffer is a loss of high paying union jobs when their local economy is depressed because of citizen involvement in the Iraqi War. I believe only a few Deomocatic House members from more affluent constituencies voted against the legislation.
David Hoyle voted for the following this session::
expansion of mental heath coverage to include all ekigible businesses
earned income tax credit
the creation of a high risk insurance pool
same day vote registration
ethics reform
I can go on if you like............
.
please do
Anglico is a Democrat still.
You really lack reading comprehension skills.
"Keep the Faith"
This is sad
Who gives a hoot whether I'm a Democrat or not and why does it matter. Defend Hoyle all you want, and support him until the cows come home. But don't expect me to go along with you.
Maybe you like how the Senate operates. I don't. And I especially don't like how its leadership operates.
Your comments about Bridgestone are disengenuous. The company took "no" for answer, pure and simple. After they were turned down for incentives, they went ahead and initiated the investments they were planning even though the state wasn't helping. The only reason they were included later on is so the state wouldn't look like it was playing favorites inside one major industry.
You can try to spin the tax "compromise" anyway you want, but it doesn't change the outcome. And blaming a tax break for rich guys on the Justice Center is absurd. They have no vote on anything. That deal was orchestrated and negotiated by the Senate leadership and the end result stinks.
ncadvocate left behind with the republican camp followers
Cumberland County is a Tier 1 county with the entire 82nd Airborne across seas. *ncadvocate
Wow! They must have left all of the 14,000 Cooks and Laundry privates behind then! So how long have you been in the 82nd military command accountant department at Bragg unless you are using the Haliburton accounting principles manual?
Ethics Reform?
For Hoyle, I think it's too little too late.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Whether you are a Democrat or not does matter
"And the same pro-business faction that voted to give $40+ million in taxpayer dollars to two tire companies, one of which wasn't even asking for the handout." This statement was simply inaccurate and was disingenuous don;t you think Anglico ?.
Here is why it matters, as to whether you are a Democrat or not. Your webpage has been receiving increasing recognition by the mainstream media as a voice for progressive Democrats. Its interesting as to who Fox News, NC Spin and even the News and Observer picks to serve as the countervoice to conservative Republicans. It is important that those progressive Democrats who read this webpage understand that you aren't a Democrat and would readily facilitate a Republican takeover of the legislature as did the Naderites who felt Al Gore was no different than George W. Bush in 2000. North Carolina is the only southern state where Democrats have consistently held control over both the legislature and the Governorship. Democrats have been able to achieve this success because both wings of the party have worked together.
Moving on
We had a bad blow up last week over the Hagan-Neal race, and this thread is shaping up along similar lines. I promised myself I wouldn't contribute to that happening again.
So I'm sorry to say I'm bailing out on you.
I know I'm not be the kind of Democrat you approve of. The feeling is entirely mutual.
Peace.
you might not know this
what with facts and reading not being your strong suit, but Florida wasnt lost because of people voting for someone they believed in.
The vast majority of Nader voters were "new" voters; people who would not have voted at all if Nader wasnt running. The real reason we lost Florida in 2000 was because of Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush and the illegal disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters.
"Keep the Faith"
You really need to stop beating this horse
'cuz it ain't goin' anywhere.
I really don't think A. is out there phone banking, knocking on doors or promoting reps on this website or any other to try to help reps to take over the GA. And even if he is UNA, he's still a far better democrat (no offense A. :) ) than the thousands of dinos that inhabit NC.
You are inflating his questioning of the party (anyone's right) and his amicable correspondence with Orr into something it is not. In doing so you cast yourself in a rather negative, and rather Rovian, light.
Person County Democrats
Boy, NCAd, you do love a good flame fest.
You know ... I'll ignore the fact that the admins of a blog can say any dang thing they dang well please and if you had half their talent you'd have your own just as active, dynamic, well-read and informative blog yourself.
What I can't ignore is this ... I don't really "know" Anglico. I've met James a couple times but I don't know him well enough to speak for him. However, I have read everything (nearly) he's written here and I can with confidence say that everything you, NCAd., wrote in this line
is totally false and I think you know it.
It's is our job, it is a county party officers' job, it is James' job, it is the duty of every politically engaged citizen to challenge the other party's false assertions. That's the part you no doubt like about blueNC. Unfortunately, it appears that what you don't like is the other part of our job. You'd rather everyone with a D by their name get a free pass no matter how they vote or what they do. No ... sorry, we're Democrats, not Repubicans. It is equally our job to challenge those within our own party to be better servants of the people, better stewards of the people's money, and thereby to be better Democrats by representing the interests of their voting constituents at least as well as they represent the interests of their big money and corporate donor constituents.
I've already used up my weekly allotment of "amen" exclamations
But I'll do it again. AMEN!!!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
I wish David Hoyle
Would stick around to spite y'all.
Bet he does
Believe me, it crossed my mind that an appeal from the communist fringe might strengthen his resolve to run again.
Come on now, A., you need to make up your mind. (j/k)
Are you a rabid commie or a radical fascist in bed with republicans?
Or is the usual left/right linear political spectrum really a mobius loop?
(it looks like it has two sides, really is one side, arranged so that if you follow it, you never really get anywhere.)
Person County Democrats
That is why
I didnt email him.
"Keep the Faith"
The Queen of Denial
Leslie H, Why don't you address the points made here? I have no problem with criticizing policies not consistent with core Democratic beliefs. However, Anglico went far beyond criticism of certain positions taken by a particular Democrat. He oversimplified David Hoyle's voting record and advocated that progressives directly request his retirement. Consider the following points previously made:
1. The majority of positions supported by Senator David Hoyle are consistent with the core beliefs of members of the Democratic Party.
2. If Senator Hoyle retires, the Republicans have a clear path to taking over the North Carolina Senate in 2008.
3. The majority of positions taken by Republican gubernatorial candidate Robert Orr are consistent with the core beliefs of members of the Republican Party and yet Anglico sings his praises because of a few issues where Orr arguably is progressive
4. Naderites rejected Al Gore as not being pro-environment enough and considered him to be the same as George W. Bush so they voted for the person who allegedly was principled with integrity, Ralph Nader and gave this country to the far right for the past 7 years.
5. Anglico calls for David Hoyle to retire even if it creates a real possibility for the Republicans to takeover the Senate based upon the same reaasoning the Naderites cast rheir vote for Nader instead of Al Gore in 2000.
6. Anglico has attempted to switch his registration to unaffiliated and alludes to the possibility he may still do so.
How have Anglicoites responded?
LCloud: And you can kiss my donkey, too.
Brunette Maybe you're right. Maybe. But just as juries will fool us, so will the electorate. To pretend there's a hard and fast formula for prediction is fun -- and foolhardy
Brunette: Hoyle is hypocrite, and I'd sooner vote for a person of integrity with whom I disagree than a person like Hoyle, who represents nothing so much as the idea of holding power.
Loft: I believe I could and would vote for a Republican if her/his values aligned more closely with mine. Parties only matter if they reflect the people who care enough to participate in them.
Anglico: Who gives a hoot whether I'm a Democrat or not and why does it matter
Maxthedog2: You do understand that you are chatting with "Exxon" John Hood evil twin ncasshole! He must be bored again and still piss at this site for cleaning his clock everytime he sneaks in here.....So "Exxon" What is your hot topic on NC spin tomorrow? "Should those progressive communists at BlueNC be tase or waterboard for offending the 1 st amendment?"
Blue South: what with facts and reading not being your strong suit, but Florida wasnt lost because of people voting for someone they believed in.
PersonDem: You are inflating his questioning of the party (anyone's right) and his amicable correspondence with Orr into something it is not.
Anglico: For a couple of weeks I thought I was unaffiliated. It was weird. On one hand I really liked it, on the other I felt less free to criticize the party. So when my registration came back, I considered it a sign to rethink my position, which I am currently doing. Unaffiliated is looking better and better.
I rest my case
You could have written all those points up at the top and just never come back, because when people refute you all you do is post the same thing, and then ignore everything they said to refute you, just posting their intros as if nothing else was written.
You are a waste of time.
"Keep the Faith"
Anglicoites?
Now I'm an "Anglicoite?"
How ya figure that, NCAdv?
Someone who disagrees with you is an "Anglicoite?" Or does one get to be an "Anglicoite" simply by agreeing with Anglico?
That would make me a Burkian, too right, since I have a quote of his beneath my signature. Oh dear, Burke was a conservative, and I am not. What a pickle. And I reckon I have to be called Meekerophile since I voted for Meeker, and a Clintonite (Clintonista?) since I voted for Clinton.
In any event, I'm glad to stand by my statements regarding Hoyle. I don't think this means I have to change parties.
(Ever hear of Joe Sinseheimer?)
I'm still mystified by your assertion, which you seem to think is self-evident, that Hoyle's failure to run inevitably results in his replacement by a Republican.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Yup, it's happened to you, Brunette,
just like it happened to all of us, here.
You have been assimilated. You are now part of... The Anglico.
:::giant eyeroll::
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Political Science: politics based on science not faith
Brunette
Here are two key races from 2004 involving Gaston County. Show me where a non-incumbent Democrat has defeated a Republican in Gaston County since 2000. Tell me how a Democrat will win an open seat here if Hoyle retires.
2004 Presidential Election results in Gaston County North Carolina:
Bush / Cheney (Rep.) (68%)Kerry / Edwards (Dem.) (32%)Other (0%)
Bush/Cheney (Republican): 67.8%
Kerry/Edwards (Democratic): 31.8%
COUNTY STATUS CANDIDATE COUNTY VOTE VOTE % PRECINCTS
Gaston
Updated: 5:36 p.m. ET
Ballantine
33,882 53% 100% of precincts reporting
Easley
(Incumbent)
28,960 45%
Howe
976 2%
Move on
Move on Hoyle. Retire. Be done with the bidding of others. The Rs will gain the seat but so be it.
The seat will go Republican and so could the Senate
The seat will go Republican and so could the Senate
very true
By my arithmetic, I see us losing, Dalton, Queen, Goss, Foriest, Hoyle (if he retires), Boseman (quite possibly), and Kerr (if he retires). With Soles you can never tell and Hagan's seat can go back to the Republicans very easily.
Using NC Advocate's "logic"
none of the people you've listed are good Democrats because they're putting control of the NC Senate at risk.
It's all coming clear to me now.
WRONG
How is Goss, Foriest, Queen, Boseman putting the Democratic majority at risk? They represent districts that lean heavily Republican and have been held by Republicans for a long time.
There is a major difference between wanting to serve the people of North Carolina in new ways, or retiring, than actively wishing a Democratic member of the legislature retire because they aren't "Democratic enough" on the issues that matter to you.
I'm sorry, but you are just wrong.
The problem here
Is the assumption that no progressive can win a Republican district. The assumption is that to win in "red" areas you have to be as far right as possible to win.
Its absurd.
Voters respect politicians who actually believe in something and say what they believe in and vote that way. This country and this state are full of examples of people who have won conservative districts by simply being themselves.
Guess who held Boseman's district before her. Here is a hint, it wasnt a DINO. It was an actual honest to God Republican. And she won by working hard and being honest about how she would vote. She isnt a liberal, but she also isnt all that conservative. And if she continues working as hard as she has the last few years she will be rewarded with another reelection victory
"Keep the Faith"
Yes, it was Ballantine
But that doesn't change anything. Boseman isn't a progressive Democrat. She is a moderate. and I'm getting sick of people claiming that the voters will vote for a Progessive because they are honest. That is complete nonsense, you know it, I know it and everyone knows it.
really
Its nonsense?
What do the pundits cite as the number one reason Bush beat Gore and Kerry? Likeability. More voters liked him, and more voters trusted him to stick to his position, even though in many cases they disagreed with him.
What is the thing that George Lakoff and Karl Rove agree on? "Talk about values". They both believe that candidates who talk about what they believe in can overcome any disagreement that voters might have on specifics.
Personally I would trust the two of them over you.
"Keep the Faith"
Likeability ain't the same as honesty
In fact, I think folks frequently don't like honesty. They like the wink,wink, nudge, nudge variety of politics as long as they think they're in on the joke. It isn't honesty they like. It's mob-mentality.
Bush appealled to a lot of people by encouraging their worst fears. The word "values" is a frequently used euphemism for "prejudices," when uttered by Rove and his ilk.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
The Future is Now in 2008 for Continued Democratic Control
There is a big difference between New Hanover County and Gaston County. Easley carred New Hanover County over Ballentine. Ballentine carried Gaston over Easley. If simply running as an honest progressive is the answer, then I suggest LCloud run against Harris Blake next year. Anglico and his supporters can raise money and let's see how well she does. Harris Blake can be defeated but only by a conservative Democrat. LCloud wouldn't stand a prayer even with $250,000.00.
Boseman votes very similar to David Hoyle but I don't see Anglico and his ilk calling for her resignation. ( She is an excellent Senator who should enjoy our continued support on many levels) On the minimum wage, she voted with Hoyle to exempt 18 and 19 year olds from receiving the increase that was to be provided to the remaining workforce. Fortunately progressive Democrats successfully fought against such an exclusion.
Blue South, David Hoyle isn't far right. He has voted for many progressive iniatives not supported by the Republicans. He will go to New Hanover County andcampaign for Julia Boseman if she requests for him to do so. We are fortunate that he has been able to win in a district that George W. Bush carried 2-1. I don't disagree that districts can change and that is certainly what has happened in New Hanover County. But as aforementioned, Gaston County is not New Hanover County and in every major statewide race since at least 2000 the Republican candidate has defeated the Democratic candidate.
Anglco, do you think your last comment was an inciteful point? You lost the credibility that you enjoyed in Democratic circles when you announced you were unaffiliated. Now you are in quicksand and can't figure a way to get out. I would suggest that you have an epiphany and realize that politics isn't simply about ideas but also how you achieve power to further those ideas. You do a good job of articulating quality reasoning on issues but you remain weak on how to be successful in advancing progressive policy positions.
Now see here . . .
You just can't use a word like "inciteful" (surely you meant "insightful") and then tell someone he has lost credibility. I realize spelling isn't everyone's strong suit, and I really do try not to nitpick about the poor spelling and grammar I see on this and other blogs, but you did couple the use of a nonexistent word ("Inciteful!" Oh please!) with an accusation about credibility. Consider this post a mild slap on the fanny with a ruler.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
In-slight-ful
I thought the Advocate was making a clever play on words, but perhaps I am overly generous.
Quit it.
Everyone has their role to play. Mine isn't running for Senate - even in your little dream world of progressives getting their asses handed to them in elections. Please stop this scenario, ok? Please. Just quit it.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
It ain't a dream
outside of certain districts it is far from a dream. I think in the real world it is called reality.
I'm just asking ncadvocate to leave me alone.
That's all.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
nevermind my response.
n/t
Good luck.
n/t
Three emails today
From three long-standing and loyal Democrats. Each would be happy to see Hoyle replaced, even if it meant a moderate Republican took his seat.
One asked why we put up with people like NC Advocate. (Answer: We are a big-tent kind of place.)
The plot sickens.
Moderate Republican?
Surely you jest. You'll get a Republican on the lines of Andrew Brock.
I don't jest.
I'm reporting what three email correspondents communicated to me this morning. I think their main point was, shall we say, a deep lack of appreciation for Mr. Hoyle's leadership.
Moderate Republican
I'm saying I do not think you'll get a moderate republican in that seat if Hoyle retires. It will be a hard-line conservative.
Return to Sender
Well, Anglco, I'm curious what did those 3 loyal Democrats think about your disloyalty? Remember you are only a Democrat because you had insufficient postage,
LCloud, I will respect your request.. I do appreciate that you are serving as a party official.. It is imperative that you and others find a candidate to run next year. The seat can be won.
Those three loyal Democrats
took the time to write to me personally, using their own names, to say that they share my point of view on the Hoyle issue. Unlike you, they could care less why I'm a Democrat - or even if I'm a Democrat. And they all think you're full of shit.
Which brings me to a few questions I've been wanting to ask.
You may answer the questions off-line if you like, or you can come out from behind your smarmy little curtain and do publicly. Either way is fine. But until they're answered, consider yourself non-existent.
money isn't the end all
Not many people have fists of dollars sitting around that they can donate.
Who said it was the end all?
You don't need money to host a fundraiser. I've hosted dozens without spending a nickel - all I spent was my time.
I just really don't like the talk of money
There is something about it that makes you seem like loyalty is bought with it.
And I'm too poor to host a fund raiser. My modest acoutrement would make for a horrible display. I just give with time.
GED graduates need not participate here
Brunette, It is not uncommon for the elitist far right to nitpick over spelling on a blog when they are losing the argument. God forbid, the less educated participate here. I guess I shouldn't expect any different behavior from elitists on the left who are no different in their arrogance as elitists on the right. .
Hmm, Anglico, you can dish it out, but its clear you are having a hard time taking it......
Now now now
I am only moderately elitist.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
Webmaster for NCBlue On the Defensive
My my Anglico, you mean to tell me I must give up my anonymity or I'm non-existent? You have never made that challenge to anyone. have you? You will figure out who I am at some point. You would be surprised at how much we agree on policy matters. However, I just see you as another Naderite willing to give power to the far right. Here in the real world outside of Chapel Hill it does make a difference in the lives of working people that Democrats maintain a majority in the General Assembly And you know something most people in Chapel Hill understand the importance of Democratic Party loyalty.
Isn't there someone else who used to...
Call this Website NCBlue?
Rob Christensen did it.
It's become a ploy of the lunatic right-wing fringe to refer to BlueNC as NCBlue. Maybe it's catching on among the lunatic Democratic mainstream, too.
Durr...
I should have known only the most inept political reporter would call this website that.
Unless of course.....
obvious comment about who the commenter might be left blank to protect the innocent.
One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon
Whoops.
it's BlueNC, not NCBlue. Someone else recently made that mistake, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was.
I don't think Anglico can be called the webmaster - he's not involved in the actual web-spinning that keeps the place running. That would be Lance, who is hardly ever here anymore, wouldn't it? I miss Lance.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
Besty now
I help, but Betsy is the web mistress.
- - - - -
Thomas Jefferson said you always get the rulers you deserve.