The debate sucked.

As I had a chance to sleep on it, think about it, drive the kids to work and think more about it, ride the bus and think about it, I've just come to the conclusion that I might not even watch the next debate. Because last night's fiasco just sucked.

Why?

  1. 8 candidates in 90 minutes.

Seriously, every other problem stems from that simple fact. Raise your hand questions? What will be next? "Please fill out this bubble sheet on your beliefs related to choice, guns, religion, and prayer in school; where 5 is 'I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this important subject. Throughout my career I have fought on the right side of {insert issue}, and will continue to lead that fight as President.' and where 1 is 'Thank you for the opportunity to address this important question, but first I would like to clarify that I think this war in Iraq is a tragedy.'".

There should not have been so many candidates, but if there were to be so many candidates then it should have been a 3 hour debate. But, lord forbid we screw up the ratings. Did you notice that SOUTH CAROLINA, THE HOST STATE, cut away from the debate after one hour? South Carolinians had to tune to MSNBC to watch it, and what about those who were too poor to have extended cable? They didn't get to watch it? Are you f**king kidding me? It's pathetic.

And, also, the format. Brian Williams....you're awful. One word means one word. Let me moderate the next debate and I damn doggit guarantee you Bill Richardson won't launch into some long oration when asked for a one word response. Moreover, there was no fact checking, there was no cross-examination. It was up to bloggers to point out Richardson's inconsistencies on "residual forces", it was up to bloggers to point out Clinton's corporate responsibility talk doesn't jive with her acceptance of PAC money, one of the only Democratic candidates to accept it. It was up to bloggers to point out that Obama's talk about upholding a woman's right doesn't match his voting "present" seven times on abortion issues in the Illinois legislature. And, it was up to MSNBC to point out that Edwards said oil prices were the main cause for gas price increases, but that lack of refinery capacity is actually the main cause.

This kind of debate does more harm to our party than good and I hope some organization, somewhere, will host a real debate. If all the candidates are going to be there, then it needs to be 3-4 hours in length and there needs to be an ability for candidates to cross-examine one another, to cut through the bull and get to the facts and specifics.

The post-debate analysis is also ridiculous, because there was such a lack of depth to the debate. We might as well be debating what they wore, because the words from this debate were so fluffy and saccharin that it can only be described as a cotton candy debate.

Comments

I thought

their outfits were fine.

I wish it was ok for the President to wear a hat. I think the choices could be pretty telling. Which candidate would wear a fedora? Would anyone go with a bowler? Would Chris Matthews buy Kucinich a beret?

Draft Brad Miller -- NC Sen ActBlue :::Liddy 44 Brad 33

"Keep the Faith"

Beards.

We would have a whole debate today about whether Hillary stands a chance since she doesn't have a beard.

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Oh, Stormbear,

will you dress up these candidates in their fitting hats? Please, please, please?

Fox radio news annoints Clinton, Biden

Yeah, Robert. I'm definitely getting the feeling that the right-wing media controlled the debate from start to finish. I've actually heard "citizens" quoted on the news as saying they didn't like any of the Democratic candidates. Definitely, the format made them all look pretty lame. Who's fault is that?

Also, all night long Faux news used quotes from Clinton and Biden as if it was clear they had overwhelmed the others. And as I think about it, that's just what the Republicans would want. Biden they would decimate in a veep debate. Clinton they can demonize most easily.

It's as if the Democratic party set ourselves up to be decimated by the corporate press.
 
News of the 10th district: See Pat Go Bye Bye,

Where will the Dark Horse

come from...has Russ completely given up? Al?

all the

dark horses just shot themselves. Why? Because the only good dark horse in the race was Richardson, and he did horrible.

If Gore jumps in the race changes, but I dont think that is gonna happen.

Draft Brad Miller -- NC Sen ActBlue :::Liddy 44 Brad 33

"Keep the Faith"

Is it really too late

for someone to step up? I think we will all have such fatigue from listening to these insipid debates and the 24 hr spin cycle for so many months that it will have to be a very dark horse that comes from the outside in this race? No?

There are a couple problems.

Most people think money is number one, but it isn't. First, is quality staff. Almost all the truly quality people have been snatched up, although there are rumors that Kerry people are waiting for an Al entry. Clinton is supposedly paying advisors and consultants PURELY to keep them from working on other campaigns. That means someone like Warner or Russ have no chance. Al might be able to steal SOME people, but I doubt many.

This doesn't just mean national either, it also means state activists and organizers, like in Iowa and Nevada, and New Hampshire, etc.

Then, there is the money problem.

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Is there any truth to the rumor

that Hillary's people WANT Gore in because with he will pull voters from her opponents, leaving her the clear leader.
 
News of the 10th district: See Pat Go Bye Bye,

who has

been the loudest "gore will probably run" voice of late?

Bill Clinton.

Draft Brad Miller -- NC Sen ActBlue :::Liddy 44 Brad 33

"Keep the Faith"

Maybe

by the next debate 3 or 4 of them will have dropped out and we can get some serious details.

Draft Brad Miller -- NC Sen ActBlue :::Liddy 44 Brad 33

"Keep the Faith"

We know Kucinich won't.

Now, Gravel has gotten a taste of media recognition, he won't. So, it is Dodd or Biden that will step down. Richardson did pretty awful, so maybe he will if the donations dry up, then he can run for VP full-time instead of part-time.

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Kucinich...

bless his heart, knows he hasn't got a snowball's chance, has said that he will stay in in order to raise the level of the debate. Is it working yet?

nope

gravel says everything better than denny and with more anger.

Draft Brad Miller -- NC Sen ActBlue :::Liddy 44 Brad 33

"Keep the Faith"

Pure gold

Please fill out this bubble sheet on your beliefs related to choice, guns, religion, and prayer in school; where 5 is 'I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this important subject. Throughout my career I have fought on the right side of {insert issue}, and will continue to lead that fight as President.' and where 1 is 'Thank you for the opportunity to address this important question, but first I would like to clarify that I think this war in Iraq is a tragedy.'

This is great!

Well thank you.

It just popped into my head and I thought it was pretty damn good if I do say so my own self.

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Pretty damn good?

It's classic.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Good stuff

This really was the dumbed-down debate to end all dumbed-down debates. Is it any wonder that morons like GWB get elected in this country when we run elections based purely on money raised and stupid bullshit like "who is your moral leader?"

Jesus.

Indeed.

War is over if you want it.

They all (except Gravel) seemed so practiced & prepared.....

that they assured no serious answers could be forth coming for fear of saying something controversial....

I think John Edwards should have been a bit more assertive, but for what was there, he did alright. I was overall a little dissappointed with it all, but hey!...Its early...Things will get more specific and dangerous as the time gets closer to the first primary.

Sorry folks, but Obama did not impress me, but thats just me.

As I remember, it seemed that Obama had not had a South Carolina accent since his visit to Selma.

I feel that JE came out ahead, but the whole thing was over-sold a bit.

Marshall Adame
2014 U.S. Congress Candidate NC-03

This debate format neutralized people

Who normally inspire and educate voters. And the only winner in that situation is the front-runner, because status quo is maintained.

I tried to put myself in the shoes of the average voters who might know little or nothing about these people and their views as they sit down to watch this show. My conclusion---I wouldn't even vote at all based on this. It's a bunch of pretty bright folks (and Gravel) being shackled by tight timeframes and trying to get words in edgewise with bombthrowers (again, Gravel, and, occasionally, Dennis Kucinich) and the moderators asking dumb questions like "raise your hand if you have a gun" or "who is your moral leader."

What a bunch of BS---what if Lance limited you and me to just 45 characters per post and 15 for rebuttals? We wouldn't even bother.

War is over if you want it.

My wife....

said that if she were being honest, and hadn't spoken with me so much about politics, she would have thought Kucinich and Gravel were the front-runners because they got so much camera time.

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

here's the cool flip side:

next week, MSNBC holds the first gop debate, and you'd have to assume they'll be shackled by the same rules. what's pissing us off today will have us in stitches next week.

War is over if you want it.

I see last night's debate more as psycho drama

more than anything else. It certainly wasn't "debate" by any stretch of the imagination. Each candidate had roles to play:

Gravel spewed out our anger, bellowing fury over the last 6 years of inept government, and in particular the last 5 years of improper, mishandled war. He railed not only against the President, but at Congress, including our Sacred Images - those candidates that we don't want to rail against, who mostly because of being in the minority for 4 years, were ineffectual in corraling the Republican War Machine. He was mad as hell and he wasn't going to take it any more.

Kucinich (at least for me) represented conscience, believing that all would be well if we just followed the Constitution, played nice, and ate our veggies. Imagine all the people.... Wouldn't we all like to believe that we could fix all of the nation's problems by impeaching Cheney and Bush? And wouldn't we like to have more representatives who had the balls to do it?

Richardson reminded me of our teenage selves - desperate to be heard, and to make a point, and to score points. (Like others, I was extremely disappointed in his performance. I thought he would have a better showing. I thought maybe it wasn't him, and that they had already gotten Horatio Sanz to play him.) He bumbled his way through his answers, determined to give them, even if they weren't really the answer to the questions he was asked. I kept expecting him to high five the air when he got a talking point right. YEAH!!! MIDDLE EAST PEACE CONFERENCE FIVE!!!

Edwards represented the part of the self/society that doesn't always stand out, doesn't always make noise, but usually knows what's right, and does what's right, not because it will be noticed, but because it's right. Unsung hero - you need to start singing. Let the right hand know, because the left already does.

Dodd represented the middle manager in all of us that believes we could do a better job than the boss, if we'd only get a chance.

Biden, ah Biden. He is the showman, the ultimate politician. Is that good or bad? Only your subconcious knows for sure. He had the right answers (mostly) but still is the creepy uncle that shows up at weddings and everyone goes "Oh, it's uncle Joe. Put the good whiskey away."

Obama is the part of us who looks for a better way. We all do, because hell, we've all got a little Gravel in us. But he didn't give any indication (to me) that he'd found that better way. Of course, he didn't have much of a chance, with that format.

Clinton represented the smart kid; the one who has always gotten straight A's, without studying. She allowed some dumber kids to copy off of her paper sometimes, too. She's memorized most of the answers already, so she's pretty sure she can ace this test, too. (For me, even though I'm not a supporter right now, she represented something even better. She's a frontrunner, and she's a woman. Right up there with all those Y chromosomes. My grandmother didn't have the right to vote until she was 28. So, heh. Boo-yah!)

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

I sure wish

It had been you instead of Splat Buchanan or Fucker Carlson up there last night. That was the best debate analysis I've seen yet.

War is over if you want it.

I agree, except about Clinton.

I don't see Hillary sharing her notes or homework with ANYONE!!!! This is the candidate calling donors and saying "Give to me, or else."

One man with courage makes a majority.
- Andrew Jackson

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

:) thanks.

I love these things, really. It's a shame it's become such theater.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Creative assessment....

I liked it.

Marshall Adame
2014 U.S. Congress Candidate NC-03

whoa. Lcloud,

that was ... awesome.

I dang sure wish you could come out and play post more often! :) ... frakkin' job ...

"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Interesting perspective

and funny, too. I love it.
No wonder I found myself reacting the way I did. That "smart kid" always did make me feel like grumbling...grrrrr.

I was "the smart kid"

back in high school, bordering on serious nerd. Thank god I was mostly oblivious to the world around me, otherwise I'm sure I'd have been totally depressed all the time.

I was, too, Anglico

and I wasn't allowed to be oblivious to the world around me. I was totally depressed. I was "goth" before "goth" was cool. Or before they called it "goth".

Scary.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

I like your summaries better

short, sweet, and to the point.

Edwards represented the part of the self/society that doesn't always stand out, doesn't always make noise, but usually knows what's right, and does what's right, not because it will be noticed, but because it's right. Unsung hero - you need to start singing. Let the right hand know, because the left already does.

Excellent, lcloud, simply excellent

So much good stuff there. LOL because this is too true:

I thought maybe it wasn't him, and that they had already gotten Horatio Sanz to play him

I'd like to add that Hillary is the straight-A student that has it memorized but we're not sure she really understands what she's spewing back at the teacher.

And is Edwards really the one with integrity or the one that has the appearance of integrity down pat? For the people who don't know him, particularly for those not from the South, he needs to prove that his poverty organization actually is doing something about poverty and not just talking about doing something about poverty.

As to Biden: will we find out later that his great talking points were stolen from someone else's speech?

 
News of the 10th district: See Pat Go Bye Bye,

Hillary

I'd like to add that Hillary is the straight-A student that has it memorized but we're not sure she really understands what she's spewing back at the teacher

After I posted that, I thought of her perfect "stand-in". If Richardson is played by Horatio Sanz, Clinton can only be played by Lisa Simpson.

And yeah, I think Edwards is sincere, but you're right, he's got to show those results to the rest of the country. Like I said, start singing.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Oh come on, don't spread that crap

Biden cited Kinnock in many other speeches on tape, and the networks realized their mistake, and the Dukakis staffer that released the tape of the one speech in which Biden didn't cite Kinnock was fired.

I always wanted to be the avenging cowboy hero—that lone voice in the wilderness, fighting corruption and evil wherever I found it, and standing for freedom, truth and justice. - Bill Hicks

Sorry, I lived in Massachusetts at the time

Maybe that's why I never heard that side of it.

What about his resume padding? Or was that another exaggeration . . .
 
News of the 10th district: See Pat Go Bye Bye,

That's actually one I've never heard

Might be someone else ... though almost everyone in politics pads it a little ... internships are often called "auxillary consulting" or something similar ;-)

I always wanted to be the avenging cowboy hero—that lone voice in the wilderness, fighting corruption and evil wherever I found it, and standing for freedom, truth and justice. - Bill Hicks

Lcloud, every time I read a great post of yours like this

I say a little prayer and thank your Dad for all he did to educate and encourage you. Boy-oh, I'm glad you are on our side!

No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.

Progressive Discussions

That is so sweet, Mo.

He was a great teacher, and would have adored you. He loved down to earth Democratic Women who weren't afraid to ask questions and speak their mind.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

I would have loved to been able to

sit at his knee with you and just listen....; )

No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.

Progressive Discussions