John Edwards, still weak-kneed?

Crossposted from Town Called Dobson


click to enlarge

First off, Bill Donahue is a prick. Secondly, John Edwards is an idiot for giving in to him. This just smacks of the same weak-kneed Democratary we saw during the first six years of the Bush Administration and frankly, I don't want to see any more.

If you are considered a bigot because you criticize the Vatican's stance on abortion, gay marriage, birth control or the pedophile cover-up, count me in. I read the blogger's posts and their comments and thought none of it belittled Jesus Christ, it did however nail the Vatican and their apologists for their inhumane stance on human rights and the rights of children.

Bush clearly didn't hear the voice of the people during the last election and I guess John Edwards didn't either. We are all shit-sick of George W. Bush, the war in Iraq AND wimpy Democrats.

I want them all gone.

Comments

That's because, with all due respect, you're full of shit.

From Pandagon:

People who claim to love Jesus write me
254 Comments Published by Amanda Marcotte February 13th, 2007 in Religion, Boggles the Mind, Assholes

Update: To correct misinformation in the comments, I was not “fired”. I offered my resignation and it was accepted.

You can see the same thing from the Shakes at her site. For some reason, there are those in the blogosphere who see conspiracy behind every action. 9/11 was caused by the secret Vatican council! Your comic plays to that ridiculous group of people who see black helicopters flying over NYC and believe that there WAS NO PLANE THAT HIT THE PENTAGON!!!

Fact not fiction.

Where are the candidates?

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Actually Robert

if you read the comments at both places and DKos/Mydd you will see that many in the netroots refuse to accept their explanation. I got to Pandagon before it went down and read the comments and even people at her own site seemed to have a bit of doubt. Comments at MyDD also tended to lean that way from some.

If folks in the netroots doubt the resignation story (and I believe it personally) the general population will believe whatever the MSM tells them. That's the point Stormy is making.

Just because you don't agree with his point of view doesn't mean he is full of shit.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

THIS is the part that I find bullshit.

Secondly, John Edwards is an idiot for giving in to him...Bush clearly didn't hear the voice of the people during the last election and I guess John Edwards didn't either. We are all shit-sick of George W. Bush, the war in Iraq AND wimpy Democrats.

That just plays to the right-wings plan of divide and conquer. Spreading a lie that Edwards fired her, saying he is an idiot for firing her, that he is a wimpy Democrat. It's all bullshit, it's all black helicopters and explosives brought down the WTC bullshit.

If you can't believe Amanda and Shakes that they stepped down for their own reasons, then why support them in the first place? I'm not sure who is more pathetic, the right-wing wackos that caused this shit-storm in the first place, or the pathetic Democrats who are turning it into a divisive party issue.

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Both are equally pathetic

Stormy strip is right on the money, though. Maybe not his follow-up commentary, but the strip itself speaks volumes.

I've made my suggestions about how to flatten this.

This is the part I disagree with in the strip.

crop-of-stormy

1. Stormbear could have made the same point with the bloggers "quitting".
2. This character might be a conspiracy theorist, as noted below by stormy, however,
3. He mimics the same points in his follow-up commentary.

Here is a question no one is asking, why aren't people who have this point of view attacking Amanda and Shakes for quitting? What, their lives were threatened? Well, according to them John Edwards should have somehow forced them to stay on board no matter what, so why aren't these folks going after them for being quitters?

So, they felt great personal fear that people wanted to kill them, who cares, right? After all, that was not enough reason for Edwards NOT to force them to stay. He should have forced them to stay and then they could have gone into protective custody, had mental breakdowns worrying about their health and safe-keeping and lived in witness protection the rest of their lives.

THAT would have showed the right-wing who was boss!

Where are the candidates?

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

This is why I call bullshit on the resignation thing...

Donahue and his crowd has been all over these bloggers for some time. They are popular and controversial.

I do NOT believe once they worked for Edwards they suddenly came to the attention of Donahue and then the death threats started.

I have gotten them before not just for Dobson for for Books For Soldiers.

Being controversial as the bloggers have been in the past, I do not believe this is their first threat.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

So you're calling them

So you're calling them liars.

"85% of Republicans are Democrats who don't know what's going on." -Robert Kennedy, Jr.

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire

Well, I am sick of wimpy Democrats.

And I think Edwards wimped out when he called their writing offensive. If he did find it offensive, why did they get hired? To show his web cred? Something else?

Does Edwards beleive the church sponsored pedophilia wasn't? Or women in the priesthood? Gay marriage? Abortion? Stem cells?

Hell, most of Edwards' positions are in opposition to Catholic doctrine.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

They were let go

Whether he technically fired them or not, I think Edwards was a coward for validating and echo-ing the concerns of the Religious Right and effectively defending reprehensible political acts by the Catholic church.

It doesn't really matter whether the bloggers were fired explicitly. They were hung out to dry in front of all of us. It wasn't exactly a heartfelt invitation to stay.

Because you are repeating falsehods

I tend to get angry when people call people I admire and respect liars.

You are calling John Edwards a liar. You are calling Amanda a liar and you are calling Shakes a liar.

You are.

And don't play it off on your cartoon character - that's just cowardice.

"85% of Republicans are Democrats who don't know what's going on." -Robert Kennedy, Jr.

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire

Damned if you do and damned if you don't

John found himself in a lose-lose situation and, unfortunately, he lost on this one.

The media are having a field day, and John's supporters are pissed off that the story won't die. Including pissed off at you for keeping it going in this strip. Whether he fired them or not isn't the point, it's still out there.

Almost any popular blogger worth a damn will be a liability to a campaign. Blogs run too deep and have way too many ways of being interpreted by people set on stomping out their opponents.

I usually find the most fault with the MSM on stuff like this, but here I fault the left-wing blogosphere. The discussion at Kos, in particular, showed an immediate and raw rift across the candidate spectrum. People for John jumped in to defend, people against him slammed him hard. And the MSM followed that lead because the story was about bloggers . . . so that was the place to go for sources.

The blogosphere hostility around "other" candidates is a destructive force that I find off-putting and childish - and I'm usually willing to put up with a lot of hostility (not to mention, create it myself when it comes to the Party of Greed).

Much to think about.

How did I miss that toon?

I lov eit!

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Bitching isn't rationale

You stepped on a hornet's nest of frustration among John's supporters who desperately want this to play out another way.

Edwards should personally take to the airwaves and the blogosphere with a full-frontal assault on the forces of evil that Donohoe represents.

He should explain this situation personally - live and on teevee, which is his best medium

1. We didn't do as good a job as we should have when we hired these two young women.

2. Once this story broke, I personally decided to give them a chance. I still stand by that decision.

3. The radical right wing noise machine then kicked into high gear, making it virtually impossible for these two to do their job.

4. They resigned and I accepted their resignation. These women know the blogosphere far better than I do. If they say they can't be effective in this environment, I'm willing to accept their judgment.

5. The extremist forces at work here in the Republican Party are a blight on our country and our political system. When bigots like Donohoe can manipulate the media agenda so easily, something is very wrong. Many of my close Catholic friends are embarrassed by this guy, as well they should be.

6. This incident is over as far as I am concerned. But know this. If a hypocrite like Donohoe attacks me again, I will push back and I will push back hard.

7. I wouldn't be running for president if I didn't think I could do the thing that needs doing right now, but my family and my integrity are even more important. I will not sit quiet while bigots and hate-mongers play with people's lives like it just a big game.

Not tee vee

Youtube.....

Very nice. I think you should send the suggestion to him.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.



***************************
Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

I have my campaign address

I don't know if John would listen to me though ;)

I always wanted to be the avenging cowboy hero—that lone voice in the wilderness, fighting corruption and evil wherever I found it, and standing for freedom, truth and justice. - Bill Hicks

YES

I would like people to hear all the *beep* *beep* *beeping* they'd have to do if those blog comments were read over the air.

I'd also like people to hear the vicious attacks Mr. Dona-ho himself has made on other groups. I've seen the quotes - and they are ugly.

Edwards should speak on YouTube about this... and quick!

The big problem with the two bloggers leaving is which candidate will the majority of the Netroots work for now. The first goal is the Dem presidential nomination. If Edwards drops the ball Obama will pick it up. Many bloggers could jump ship. If they havn't already.

Edwards should says something to more people along the lines of Anglico's suggestions. Staying quite is a mistake. One blog post on the Edwards blog won't fix this.

Well done

I nominate you to head the human resources dept at John Edwards for President. Will you, in turn, nominate me as his chief policy advisor on gay marriage?

War is over if you want it.

then you should correct them

Not repeat it.

"85% of Republicans are Democrats who don't know what's going on." -Robert Kennedy, Jr.

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire

What exactly do you want edited?

1) I honestly feel these bloggers were fired via forced resignations.

2) I honestly feel the reasons the bloggers gave for resigning is a bald-faced lie - totally.

3) I was honestly reminded of John Edward's wish-washy performance in the US Senate by his horrid response to the blog controversy. Also, it honestly put doubt in my mind that he has changed.

4) I honestly feel John Edwards' published positions are mostly diametrically opposed to Catholic doctrine and I am honestly confused when he did not come out swinging to beat the Donahue nonsense down.

5) The MSM has carried the story, both nationally and locally to Winston-Salem, that these bloggers were fired.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

Definitely Not

Stormbear=Definitely Not Weak-Kneed

Another take...

  1. Donohue honestly believes that Amanda will burn in hell, therefore I guess it is true.
  2. Malkin honestly believes that Shakes will burn in hell, therefore I guess it is true.
  3. Evolution is not real, because Donohue honestly believes that.
  4. If your not for the war in Iraq, you are against America, because Bush honestly believes that.
  5. Because, anything that anyone personally believes to be honestly true, without any proof, or with proof to the contrary, is as good as real in Dobson.

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

When candidate puppets attack.

I've written this over and over on Daily Kos, I don't think the campaigns have anything to do with these candidate on candidate attacks. There is a group of Clarkies that show up on EVERY John Edwards diary to say "Yeah, but he voted for war in Iraq, I can't trust him." Even if the diary is about the Annual Lollipop Parade.

I just can't believe that any campaign would do that, supporters yes, campaigns no.

BTW, I think whether he fired them or not is EXACTLY the point, because strips like this and the daily kos diaries flying around saying he did are meant to undermine him. Here is a candidate that is winning all the Daily kos straw polls, including the heads-up one with Obama, and people are taking great delight in saying he is "out of touch" with the netroots because he "fired" these bloggers. It's bullshit and it should be debunked.

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

From An Edwards Supporter

Your cartoon doesn't bother me a bit, Stormbear.

I visited Pendragon for the first time following a link. I read the hate-filled vitriol directed at Amanda by the 'supporters' of Mr. Dona-ho. That is what I wish the MSM would reproduce for the world to see.

Threats against her, her family, sexually perverted threats against her...what she said about them pales in comparison to what they said as threats to her.

I find it very odd... no I don't... I find it hypocritical, cowardly, and criminal to renounce unpopular opinions about your religion while using the cover of your religion to incite hate crimes.

What are Your/Our Goals?

Please consider what the goals are? If we are working to TURN NC BLUE? why would we waste time, space and emotions on the neocon hate machine agenda? I like Edwards and many of the other candidates and would love to see any of them president or in other elected positions.

Therefore, I will work very hard to refrain from doing ANYTHING that helps the neocons.

Do not be distracted seduced engaged in the Hate Machine. Stop demeaning yourself and others.

We may wish to engage in battle over issues.IE. which candidate is most respectful of the blogosphere, which candidate is most engaged...

I LOVE BLUENC because I usually hear facts and analysis I do not hear anywhere else.

TurnNCBlue

A note...

Keep in mind, this is a cartoon, and the character speaking, Herbal, is a conspiracy theorist and is simply repeating what is being said in the MSM.

The African American character, Rakarah, is just cynical after living in the South all these years AND from being a product of Catholic school.

These characters all have a long history.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

talk about weak kneed

Did you draw the damn cartoon or not?

"85% of Republicans are Democrats who don't know what's going on." -Robert Kennedy, Jr.

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire

Name is still on the strip...

and yes, I think the bloggers are lying.

As I have said before, I think their resignations were asked for by the campaign or they were going to be fired outright, which is the same thing as being fired.

So, Joe Trippi - fired or resigned?

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

Other fake stuff about TCD

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse did not endorse the new lottery.

Fundamentalists did not burn the real town of Dobson down due to an outage of RedState.com

No one is building a wall around Dobson to keep out the liberals.

There is no Katrina FEMA camp in Dobson.

Fulcanelli never lived in New Orleans.

Penguins are not campaigning for Gore.

Calabash, NC was not the landing site for a stray iceberg.

There is no such thing as a Ronald Regan Communion ritual.

The whole story of the UFO cult that talks to reptilian space lords on an ouija board is true however. No joke.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

There's a lot of blame to go around

To John Edwards for not handling it swiftly and telling Bill Donahue that he was full of it.

To the rest of the field of presidential wannabes who let another idiotic phoney-baloney attack from an ambitious wingnut shock jock derail their conversation with Americans.

To the corporate media for, well being the corporate media.

To us for not raising more of a stink with Bill Donahue's employers.

When will we stand up and say to the media and panoply of wingnuts, "You will not assasinate the character of one more Democrat."? And have some strong consequences ready when they go ahead and do it anyway.

50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

You go, Stormbear

it's asinine to think that these two weren't pushed out. The Edwards campaign is no different from any other business, except the chief has a coterie of consultants to help, esp with handling the media.

Hmm. . .2 bloggers get in trouble. . .boss says he stands by them but is still offended. . .one blogger resigns. . .then another blogger resigns. . .both within a week of the trouble. . .sounds like the 2 bloggers were forced out.

I think Edwards handled as well as he possibly could last week. Don't know about this. . .

And for those of you who say we're calling them liars---that's a little strong and very dramatic. Stormbear said it best---wishy-washy. Just like hiding behind the Southern Baptist convention on gay marriage while giving a nod to civil unions.

This guy is at his best (Iraq, the poor, America's place in the world) when he says what he means, means what he says. Wishy-washy is beneath him.

War is over if you want it.

You've just given me a reason...

not to debate this anymore. Just as you can't debate an Evangelical's beliefs because they are based on faith, no matter the fact, I can't debate with someone who thinks the people they are defending are liars and won't be shaken from their faith by facts.

Either Amanda and Shakes are liars, or you are wrong. There is no middle ground.

Where are the candidates?

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

I'm mostly staying out of this because it's, you know,

presidential politics . . .

but it's not even remotely reasonable to say there's no middle ground. There's ALWAYS middle ground, even though we may not like it.

In the case, the possible middle ground is this:

The situation was going down hill fast. Everybody inside the campaign was (and still is) talking about it. The "organization" knew that the whole sorry saga would not end well. Amanda and Shakes knew that too. Hell, you and I knew it.

The pressure was intense . . . not from the campaign, but from the theocrats. The women resigned - and with good reason. They were becoming a distraction and their lives were turned upside down. No one handcuffed them to the chair and said you can't leave.

And no one said in advance: if you're thinking about leaving, don't. We want you to stay and we will support you 1000% even if our campaign hits the rocks and sinks. No one said that and no one should have.

So the resigned. They saved the campaign the difficult task of eventually saying, "Hey, we tried and it's not going to work."

Did Donald Rumsfeld resign . . . or was he fired? Everybody says he resigned. Bush says it. Rummie says it. I think he was fired.

Does that mean I think he's a liar? (In his case I always think he's a liar, but stay with me.) No. It means everyone knew he needed to leave, so he did. And if he hadn't, he would have been asked to resign.

There's a vast chasm of possibilities between "I quit" and "you're fired." And anyone who purports to know the "facts" - including the people who were actually living inside their own skin inside the campaign - is kidding themselves.

You don't know the "facts" anymore than I do. All we have is what people said, and in my experience, that's rarely a pure, unadulterated interpretation of reality.

In other words, we're all just making shit up. It's not worth going ballistic over.

My point, last time I'll say it then I'm abandoning this thread.

From Pandagon:

People who claim to love Jesus write me
254 Comments Published by Amanda Marcotte February 13th, 2007 in Religion, Boggles the Mind, Assholes

Update: To correct misinformation in the comments, I was not “fired”. I offered my resignation and it was accepted.


From Shakespeare's Sister
:

I would like to make very clear that the campaign did not push me out, nor was my resignation the back-end of some arrangement made last week. This was a decision I made, with the campaign's reluctant support, because my remaining the focus of sustained ideological attacks was inevitably making me a liability to the campaign, and making me increasingly uncomfortable with my and my family's level of exposure.


From Stormbear
:

1) I honestly feel these bloggers were fired via forced resignations.

2) I honestly feel the reasons the bloggers gave for resigning is a bald-faced lie - totally.


From Internazionale
:

it's asinine to think that these two weren't pushed out.


From Internazionale
:

And for those of you who say we're calling them liars---that's a little strong and very dramatic.

There is NO middle ground. Either John Edwards, Amanda Marcotte, and Melissa McEwan are liars, or Stormbear and Internazionale are wrong. Period. No middle ground. The former have declared that they were NOT fired, the latter say they are lying and they were fired.
Where are the candidates?

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Middle Ground

Here's your middle ground:

Quitfired

sigh....

Update: To correct misinformation in the comments, I was not “fired”. I offered my resignation and it was accepted.

I would like to make very clear that the campaign did not push me out, nor was my resignation the back-end of some arrangement made last week.

quitfiring means you were pushed out. They say they were not pushed out. NO middle ground here.

Where are the candidates?

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.
-me

Double sigh

:)

All is well. Let it go.

No reason to get fired up here

You can quote the Edwards camp and the two bloggers themselves all day long. Anytime there's an agreement between anybody to part ways, part of the agreement is what they are going to say to the public about the parting of ways.
None of us can really know for sure, as Anglico sez.

My point, and I believe Stormbear's as well, is that Edwards needs to show strength to win this nomination, and, waaay more importantly, to win the general. If any of you think it's getting hot in the kitchen now. . .just wait till the end of summer 2008.

I love Edwards. Just think he needs to buck up on some things if he's going to be our champion on the national stage. And he doesn't need to tell the whole truth on everything to get my vote. I don't want Liar Liar Jim Carrey for President, but I do want somebody more truthful than GWB.

I'll forgive you for comparing me to an evangelical, Robert. That's as low as it gets for me, so good job of finding the sweet spot. Didn't mean to call you asinine. That makes me pretty narrow. Apologies.

War is over if you want it.

I've been out for the day

so I'm late to read this and likely my comments won't change a thing.

Religious groups and fanatics seem able to poke their noses into politics with impunity, but not so the other way around.

I think Edwards was smart enough to know that...and chose not to say more than he did. To have even called out some of Donohoe's writings, which are equally egregious as those attributed to Amanda, would have done little more than dump gas on the fire. That's why, Stormbear, I think you asked a bit much of Edwards to show you he's not a "wimp." Taking on a Catholic bigot and all the internal problems of the Catholic church, appropriate as that might be in a non-political environment, is a sure way to get further misinterpreted and off target in a presidential campaign.

Anglico made two excellent posts above...with which I mostly agree.

I support John Edwards. Someone on his staff made a huge mistake hiring these two bloggers. Edwards made a huge mistake in not having tight control over the hiring process and making absolutely certain anyone hired to represent him was/is/will be clean as the driven snow. I hope that lesson is branded onto and still smouldering on someones heiny in Chapel Hill. The same goes for security for Mr. Edwards and his family. I sure hope they are thinking about it NOW and not waiting for some nutcase to create the next, possibly excruciating, disaster.

The value of this blogger woo-hoo was to slap the the Edwards campaign management with the fact that every detail is critical. Hiring creative & talented people may be important, but having structure and process control is equally critical. This particular snafu will blow over...if some people will just let it do so....and not get too pissy with each other. I hope the Edwards and their management team don't let this happen again. It wouldn't be prudent....or near so forgivable.

(Weak knee'd was a low blow...imho)

Stan Bozarth

Hi ya Stan!

The point of all of this is two fold and one hasn't been discussed.

1) Edwards and the history of do-nothing Democrats. My wife and I discussed the candidates this past weekend - all of them and of course, we are still wait and see. But when the whole story broke big earlier this week in the MSM I had this sinking gut feeling of deja vu with Edwards. His total bungling of the blogger fiasco reeked of indecision and brought back memories of a lackluster, IMO, Senate career. I was truly disappointed in his inability to fight back.

2) Can you go far enough criticizing an organization that seeks to block women from accessing birth control? One that covered up a GLOBAL pedophile ring? On that actively sanctions Gay bigotry? One that sought to deny Kerry Communion for his voting record on pro-life legislation? In my eyes, no.

But we are clearly stuck in panel 1.

Some have criticized the characters should be more journalistic. Should I delete all the fundamentalists from the strip? They routinely spew nonsense. All the characters have histories, biographies and motivations. I won't break those rules to suit the Edwards campaign or their supporters. The big beef seems to stem from Herbal, the paranoid, pot-growing conspiracy theorist who believes the bloggers were fired and not a case of simple resignation. The MSM is reporting they were fired - local TV news here in Winston, local radio, national radio, national print, web - hell it is everywhere. Even after reading the bloggers side of story, I still didn't buy it.

You can see the vitriol expressed here, and on Kos and you can only imagine what ends up in my email. And my strip is EXTREMELY mild compared to the controversial posts the bloggers have written in the past. Donahue has been on their ass for some time. I do not believe for a minute that all of the sudden, from out of the blue, they just started getting threatening hate mail.

But back to the weak-kneed issue. The diary title is in the form of a question to others and for me, Edwards' pathetic response brought back memories o a do-nothing Democrats that we were plagued with for the past six years.

I also think it was a sign of weakness not to go after Donahue. When are we going to stop being afraid of the radical religious right? Billy Graham didn't say anything, it was Bill Donahue. Edwards should have gone after him with the same spiritedness he went after his foes with in the court room.

Disappointing.

--
Town Called Dobson - Daily Political Cartoon: Not all is red in rural America!

I completely see your points.

Quoting you " Can you go far enough criticizing an organization that seeks to block women from accessing birth control? One that covered up a GLOBAL pedophile ring? On that actively sanctions Gay bigotry? One that sought to deny Kerry Communion for his voting record on pro-life legislation? In my eyes, no."

And I agree in spades! On the other hand, everything you've mentioned has been going on for years. Where is the outrage from the rank and file of the Catholic church and the MSM and when, until recently, did you see this as a major issue of discussion except with a few people?

You. sir, are a good man! You see that which others refuse to see or avert their eyes from, and you speak out! I applaud you. You are a "wild duck" (and my wife will tell you I am also) and she will quickly add that so was Don Quijote de la Mancha...as she reigns me in.

Now...let's be factual and realistic. If there are 40M+ Catholics in this country, and their priests are groping and sodomizing their children and they aren't rising up with pitchforks and hot tar and doing something to stop the pedophilia...and the other abuses being perpetrated by their church, why do you figure John Edwards ought to do battle over it. He might be able to do something about poverty and health care...but he sure isn't gonna unseat the Pope or change the Catholic church.

I don't think that's weak...I think it's real...and people in politics need to pick their fights...those that are worth wining, and those that even if lost, meant you had the guts to get into the arena for a cause worth being bloodied.

This isn't in my mind...one of those causes because no one in the church (who matters) seems to publicly and vociferously give a damn.

Peace!

Stan Bozarth

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