North Carolina Senator Supports Allowing Firearms in National Parks
Submitted by roxane on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 4:31pm
North Carolina Senator Elizabeth Dole has reportedly joined a movement to allow individuals to carry firearms in our national parks. The movement begun by Republican Senator Mike Crapo from Idaho is pressuring the Department of the Interior to remove the federal ban on guns in our currently gun free national parks. According to reports by extreme North Carolina gun rights organizations Senator Dole has written a letter to the department asking them to lift the ban—in effect opening the door to all park visitors to carry concealed weapons provided they have a permit.
National Park Service ordinance 36 CFR 2.4, and 50 CFR 27.42(Fish and Wildlife Service), prohibits all individuals from possessing a firearm on lands managed by these agencies. These ordinances currently ensure that the national parks system remain a safe environment for visitors and visiting families. At the present time, families who travel nationwide visiting our park system can expect consistent rules and regulations throughout the country. It is likely that families may no longer feel at ease visiting a variety of national parks if they can not anticipate conditions upon arrival---put simply: they will not visit without knowing if it is a gun-free vacation spot.
Advocates for lifting the ban claim individual state governments should have the right to determine park policy. However, requirements and training for concealed firearms possession differ greatly from state to state. Park officials state that the almost 400 Park Services jurisdictions would find it impossible to enforce individual state laws particularly with the large numbers of out-of-state visitors each year.
Sue Baker, President of the Board for NCGV stated "while the states have unquestioned authority over state parks within their jurisdictions, equally so it seems absolutely certain that the federal government should have the legal control of all aspects of regulating our national parks."
Currently over 274 million individuals visit national parks each year, each of whom is allowed the opportunity to store a gun in homes inside national parks, inside RVs and even hotel rooms in national parks. Visitors are solely limited from carrying firearms on trails or on person--- where they may purposefully or inadvertently be able to injure others.
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Next she'll be wanting guns in schools
It's hard to understand Liddy's passion for stupidity, but understandable or not, it's certainly real.
Tolerance ends
It figures Dole would get behind this piece of...
That's all we need in a place where a person is the most vulnerable; no car nearby, no shelter, no help close: gun- toting nuts. That will mean everyone will have to take a gun to go commune with nature. Absurd.
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
It figures Grizzy Bears, Cougars would get behind this piece of.
These ordinances currently ensure that the national parks system remain a safe environment for visitors and visiting families* Gun and Animal Control Myth
That's all we need in a place where a person is the most vulnerable; no car nearby, no shelter, no help close: gun- toting nuts. That will mean everyone will have to take a gun to go commune with nature. Absurd.*loftT
Nothing wrong with that! How do you think the West was won without guns? Creampuffs?
Federal Parks Stats from last year
223 Cougar Attacks
14 Jogger deaths by Cougars
456 Grizzy Bear Attacks
23 deaths by Grizzy Bears
356 Wolves Attacks
5 deaths by Wolves
6784 Snake Bite Attacks
17 deaths by Snakes
123 Murders by humans
8902 Assaults by Humans
679 recorded Rapes
27,834 Recorded Robberies
124 Polar Bear Attacks
7 deaths by Polar Bears
1567 Gator Attacks
14 deaths by Gators
unknown number of family pets deaths by Gators
23 Bison Attacks
9 wounded Indians
234 Elk Attacks
3 deaths by Elks
Would you want to go out in this jungle or Zoo unarmed?
All the more reason not to have guns
if you ask me.
Tolerance ends
will add to list, though
I will say I grew up in Texas and recall my dad taking a gun along in the woods to protect us from snakes or wild boars, but I see this fraught with new trouble. First = jogger deaths. My husband is a serious runner and I can't think of any who would run with a gun(where? no pockets). I could, however, see a lot of people losing their footing on a trail and shooting themselves accidently. Sure, a reasonable person puts the gun on safety - and a reasonable person does not get close enough to a bison to get attacked.
Not to mention the people who will shoot blind into the woods from fear, (or drunkenness - do not even want to imagine the injuries from inviting firearms into the parks areas) and hit some lost kid, Grandma going to the bathroom, etc. Hunters are welcome to their guns, in areas for hunting.
Would I go unarmed? Yes, I have, but using common sense as anyone ought to in nature.
This seems to be inviting problems without showing a good reason for doing so. Doesn't Liddy have a deficit to address, or some sick children who need health care, that she could concern herself with?
I thought those Bisons were Cows Ranger?
All the more reason not to have guns*Anglico
Do you really believe that Smokey the Bear and Bambi care about forest fires and Walt Disney movies?...And don't tell me that Bambi does not want payback because some redneck shot his momma!
if you ask me.*Anglico
Great! Than can I put you down as a Grizzy Bear observer for science and lunch purposes. You just gave that old mountain man quote a whole new meaning.
" He was so brave until he went Grizzy Bear hunting with a tree branch"
but I see this fraught with new trouble. First = jogger deaths. My husband is a serious runner and I can't think of any who would run with a gun(where? no pockets). I could, however, see a lot of people losing their footing on a trail and shooting themselves accidently. Sure, a reasonable person puts the gun on safety - and a reasonable person does not get close enough to a bison to get attacked.* chun yang
Sure! Some people do run armed. It's a simple process, Most have a shoulder strap with a weapon or pistol of choice in it..Military folks having been doing it for centuries along with modern day cops and cowboys from the past....It's no big deal....In fact in one recent Cougar death, A mother was jogging with her daughter on federal property, when the Couger attack the daughter, the mother claim later that if she had been armed the Couger would have been shot and her daughter could have been alive to this day instead of watching the Couger maul her daughter to death in front of her..
And what reasonable person would sneak up to a herd of Bison besides Indians and Bufflo Bill or some drunk tourist who thought they were cows....
MOOOOoooooooooo
Sheriff, I swear, I thought they where cows! And I wish my daddy would have told me the difference between a cow with one utter and 4 utters! That one uttered cow really did not like me trying to milk her.
Pass me another miller please, Ive had a baaaaaaaaadddddd day.
people who do carry
realize what they are carrying or at least should. I firmly belief that the folks who have gone through the process of getting a concealed permit know what that weapon can do.
We can come up with all kind of scenarios of death and maiming regarding guns in national parks.
In my opinion, the probability of someone getting hurt by a gun in the hands of someone that has a carrier permit is small. The risk to people from legal carriers is low.
In a national park, I would have a greater fear of critter bite (snake, spider), getting lost, sunburn, falling and breaking something then a stray bullet flying around.
If there are stray bullets flying around, the probability that that bullet is the result of criminal activity is much higher then a stray bullet from someone shooting at a snake or other creature.
Is there more important things that liddy and the senate should be working on? you bet. How bout a defense budget for 2008. We are already 1/4 through this fiscal year and we still do not have a budget. That would seam more important then oking guns in national parks.
So...twice as many people have been killed
by humans than all other animals combined? And you want the humans to carry guns?
That leaves 117 permanently freaked-out people right there. It freaks me out just to think about it...
Geez. Talk about carrying a grudge.
Rack one up for the Red Man!
I thought those Bisons were Cows Ranger?
All the more reason not to have guns*Anglico
Do you really believe that Smokey the Bear and Bambi care about forest fires and Walt Disney movies?...And don't tell me that Bambi does not want payback because some redneck shot his momma!
if you ask me.*Anglico
Great! Than can I put you down as a Grizzy Bear observer for science and lunch purposes. You just gave that old mountain man quote a whole new meaning.
" He was so brave until he went Grizzy Bear hunting with a tree branch"
but I see this fraught with new trouble. First = jogger deaths. My husband is a serious runner and I can't think of any who would run with a gun(where? no pockets). I could, however, see a lot of people losing their footing on a trail and shooting themselves accidently. Sure, a reasonable person puts the gun on safety - and a reasonable person does not get close enough to a bison to get attacked.* chun yang
Sure! Some people do run armed. It's a simple process, Most have a shoulder strap with a weapon or pistol of choice in it..Military folks having been doing it for centuries along with modern day cops and cowboys from the past....It's no big deal....In fact in one recent Cougar death, A mother was jogging with her daughter on federal property, when the Couger attack the daughter, the mother claim later that if she had been armed the Couger would have been shot and her daughter could have been alive to this day instead of watching the Couger maul her daughter to death in front of her..
And what reasonable person would sneak up to a herd of Bison besides Indians and Bufflo Bill or some drunk tourist who thought they were cows....
So...twice as many people have been killed
by humans than all other animals combined? And you want the humans to carry guns?
124 Polar Bear Attacks
7 deaths by Polar Bears
That leaves 117 permanently freaked-out people right there. It freaks me out just to think about it...*scharrison
Gosh! I had no idea that animals and gun owners were keeping score in this war?
23 Bison Attacks
9 wounded Indians
Geez. Talk about carrying a grudge.*scharrison
Grudge Hell white man! I just want payback and if that means stealing the white man paper money and his cheap beads and whiskey by having Casios, than so be it!! Another smart remark like that white man, and you will be working the janitorial shift at the Apache Golden Dumes...
This goes back to the arguement
guns do not kill people, people kill people.
Bumper sticker "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people then my gun has." So which is more dangerous? Cars or guns? Which should be banned? Both are deadly in the hands of the untrained, whacko or criminal.
While a person might inadvertently harm another with a fire arm in the woods the guy who will purposely stalk someone will do so regardless of what the law says. He intends to use his gun for harm. The guy that legally carries a gun into the woods of a national park would be doing so mainly to kill a snake (reason alone to allow guns into national parks!). He will be shooting nearly straight down with little chance of hitting someone else. The risk of inadvertent harm from a legal carrier is low to non-existent. Risk assessment, acceptable for legal carriers into national parks.
Now the bad guy.
Scenario: A bad guy with a gun desires to purposely kill or harm someone just for jollies. The national park 3 miles from his house is a nice quite place. Big with lots of land to hide his terrible deed. He can have a blast in there just causing carnage. OOOOO wait, there is a sign that says, NO concealed hand guns or any kind of gun. Please leave your gun locked safely in your car, RV or hotel. That sign is going to stop him?......yea right. He thinks, Dam it, I gotta leave my gun in my car.....Now how am I gonna get my jollies? Stupid sign. Guess I will just go home and knit some socks. Signs.. Nope, He might put a round or two into that sign, then commence to have some real fun. How is any law going to protect society from whackos like that?
A nut job wacko is going to use his gun regardless of any law on the books. Locks and laws are made to keep honest people honest. Fortunately the vast majority of people are honest.
All the counties that allow hunting. How many people, houses, cars where inadvertently hit by a hunters stray bullet this hunting season?
Now those people who live in big cities, how many people have been hurt or killed by stray bullets or drive by killings in your town? There are laws saying you cannot use a gun when committing a crime. Seems to me like the folks who properly utilize a gun are safer then the criminal.
I do not own a gun but I might get one. I do not own a rifle or shot gun and probably never will. The majority of people who do own these weapons utilize them properly. My primary reason for not having a gun is I cannot safely shoot it. Behind my house, my neighbor has horses, do not want to scare them when I am practicing. In front of my house, 1/2 mile away is the county middle school. Don't wanna fire in that direction. Houses to the side of me. So where can I safely practice with one? No firing ranges in the county. Do not wish to go onto someone's property for the sake of firing my weapon. My neighbors would not mind if I asked.
The whack jobs do not give a dam. They will use whatever is available to do harm. Gun, car, knife, electricity, club, arrow, axe, chain saw, snake, fists, you name it, someone has tried to kill someone with it and probably succeeded.
With all that said, do we need concealed guns in our national parks, naaaaaaaa, not really. Will I stop going to a park just because the state or feds have said people can carry, NOPE. Will not bother me one way or another. Will our parks turn into DMZ with Rambo wannabees running all over the place scaring our kids? Some extra snakes might die because of it is all I see happening.
People who have carry permits have been reviewed. Can a carry permit guy trip offline, sure. But the risk is low enough for me that I feel our parks will be safe with them guns in there.
I will continue to visit national parks even if folks are carrying.
Does this state have a practice of concealed weapon carrying? If yes, what is the big deal? People are walking around with guns now. I do not see the OK Coral breaking out on a daily basis in downtown Raleigh or Charlotte between concealed carriers and cops or badguys. If no, then no one in this state will have a carry permit anyways. This state will not recognize a carry permit of another state. That out of state carrier guy will not carry anyways because he knows he is not authorized. His authority to carry stops at the jurisdictional line that granted him the permit and he knows that.
Only the criminal or whack-job will be carrying. Did the law stop him from carrying? NOPE.
Ban criminals, but do not ban guns. (I acknowledge that neither of these can be banned!)
All good points
which raises the question . . . of all the things we have to worry about, why this?
I wish I had the answer to that one.
Tolerance ends
What was that loud GRRRRRRR noise Liddy?
All good points
which raises the question . . . of all the things we have to worry about, why this?
I wish I had the answer to that one.*Anglico
The country is going to hell in a campers breadbox and this is important? The only answer to this question is that we hope Liddy goes camping without a gun and runs into the start of the mating season of Grizzy Bears by accident....
What happen to the hot dogs in front of tent and little Timmy?
But the risk is low enough for me that I feel our parks will be safe with them guns in there.* p
You got that right! But some happy campers would be stupid enough to pile their hotdogs in front of their tent at night and expect Grizzy Bears to leave a tip!
Evolution in action, Max. :)
Just the fact that they bought the hotdogs in the first place indicates a serious flaw in judgment, and a potential misstep on our evolutionary ladder-climb. The grizzly would actually be performing a service to mankind, if you think about it. :)
disclaimer: before the North Carolina Hotdog Coalition gets their panties in a wad, let me just state the following: I not only have some hotdogs in my fridge, it's entirely possible that I may eat them tonight. Just typing the word(s?) "hotdog" is generating a Pavlovian response, and my primal need for...wow. I can't believe I'm actually trying to use hotdogs as a springboard for an intellectual rumination.
I need to get a life. Right after the hotdogs. :)
Im laughing hard over here!
How the heck did we go from death and maham to hotdogs in the same thread?
I love this community!
On the subject of liddy meeting a bear in mating season. Remember, bob needs viagra, bears do not have that. Bear is gonna just run.
Run bear run!
DeEvolution in action scharrison? Think Bush!
The grizzly would actually be performing a service to mankind, if you think about it.*scharrison
I have and I am all for uniting the Grizzy Bears of the World and start a Global lunch program for the Bears with the main menu being neo-con delites.......
Seems to me, one of the first things brought home to NC
after the Republican takeover in the 90's was to change the concealed hand gun law. It's just a way for them to keep the NRA money flowing to DC. And it still is.
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
I have hiked 3000+ miles in some of the
wildest terrain on this continent and have seen one poisonous snake - it was sleeping; we took pictures; it didn't budge.
I have had 8 bear encounters. Half of them amounted to a a fleeting glimpse of a black backside heading away from me at high speed. I have had 3 encounters where I was within 30 feet; every time the bear skeedaddled when asked to leave. The last was with the ever feared (and rightly so) "mother with cub" who visited a shelter in the Smokies one morning. There was no food available so they moved on. No big deal.
The most dangerous being in the woods is a human with a gun. Take away the gun and all's as it should be and very safe for those who appreciate and respect nature.
Max's stats are questionable to say the least. Source?
If you want to keep yourself safe while outdoors you'd do just as well to carry a lightning rod and insect repellent.
And from WebMD:
And then of course there are the teams of suicide Bambi's who cause havoc on the highways.
I am surprised the NRA hasn't lobbied for vehicles to have the turret-mounted minigun option.
Elizabeth Dole is a pathetic, worthless, political hack, but she did accomplish something with this latest notion of hers that I thought was impossible. My opinion of her dropped.
Person County Democrats
Person County Democrats
Bears on the Warpath without Tommyhawks?
I have had 8 bear encounters. Half of them amounted to a a fleeting glimpse of a black backside heading away from me at high speed. I have had 3 encounters where I was within 30 feet; every time the bear skeedaddled when asked to leave. The last was with the ever feared (and rightly so) "mother with cub" who visited a shelter in the Smokies one morning. There was no food available so they moved on. No big deal. *persondem
No doubt you are not a animal or bear expert. Everybody knows that Smoky mountain Black Bears are the most train free loaders east of the Mississippi and a bunch of wimps. I would love to see you try that on a Grizzy Bear and her cubs....
Max's stats are questionable to say the least. Source?*persondem
Okay! So you caught me on the Bison attacks. I can't help it if the LaKota Sioux Tribe lie to me. Are you aware that the LaKata Sioux Tribe just seceded from the United States because the white man broke 32 Treaties in the past 120 years with the LaKatos.
Who do you believe? The Lakota Tribe or a bunch of corrupted government data source experts?
The wilds of a national park
will not be harmed with people having a gun.
You are not at a greater risk by having someone legally carrying a gun in a national park.
Anything else is expecting problems that just are not going to happen.
The wilds can be harmed by people with guns.
Think Everglades:
Google lead shot water poisoning
No human visiting a National Park needs to carry a gun. Why carry a deadly thing when you don't have to?
Person County Democrats
Person County Democrats
dont know of
to many conceal permits carriers that use guns that fire shot gun shells. Thus to say there will be a lead problem or other problem is kinda moot.
Do not know of to many people that walk around with a shotgun nor is anyone advocating hunting or setting up firing ranges in national parks.
Folks carrying a gun in the park may never use the gun thus there will not be any pellets added to the ground.
Having a gun in a national park will not hurt people, the environment nor the habitat.
Having a gun in a national park will not increase the safety of person carrying the gun. The rangers will know about critters that are harmful to people and other animals and will do something about that animal.
Having legal guns in a national park does not make the park unsafe or dangerous.
Let's take a look at this
With zero guns there is zero chance of an accidental or intentional incident. If humans bring guns into parks then they bring thier stats with them.
I'd just as soon have a zero chance of being involved in a gun incident.
Person County Democrats
Person County Democrats
playing with some numbers
with all them guns, .0454% of all guns were involved in a fire arm related death. And this is hand gun to all deaths. Not all guns to all deaths.
When all guns are compared to all deaths, .0154% of all guns are involved in firearm-related death.
If the number of suicides was removed from this, the percent would be even smaller for a gun to be utilized in a killing against another person.
Seems like a lot of people are using their guns in a safe manor.
Risk assessment seems extremely low.
That was the rationale at Virginia Tech, as well
How shall we enforce zero guns? Walls around the park and metal detectors?
These "no carry zones" are a bit maddening. We live in a dangerous world. Frankly, the most forthright, respectful people I know are those responsible citizens who care enough about themselves, their families, and their country to educate themselves on firearms and take the time earn a concealed carry permit.
Folks do not have a concealed carry permit to go hunting. It is to conceal a firearm for self-defense. And the most valuable thing you learn in a concealed carry course is just how deadly serious that responsibility is:
http://blog.lawsonforcongress.com/2007/11/18/guidelines-for-the-use-of-deadly-force/
The point is not to use the firearm, it is to reduce the likelihood of being a victim. I feel much safer knowing that folks who care enough to educate themselves can and may be armed as deputies for "good".
In a gun-free zone, the only guns belong to people who shouldn't have them in the first place. Virginia Tech would have had far fewer students killed if someone, anyone, could have found a suitable projectile to disable the assailant. I would have settled for a fire extinguisher, but a properly-certified concealed carry permit holder would have been much more effective.
William (B.J.) Lawson, M.D.
Congressional Candidate, North Carolina's 4th District
Hiking for Lead toys and Death?
Think Everglades*persondem
Think China and Toys and US...More American Children have been expose to lead this year than any creature in the Evergades for 500 years...
No human visiting a National Park needs to carry a gun. Why carry a deadly thing when you don't have to?*persondem
When can we expect you to explain your above answer to the lady family?
Missing Hiker Is Believed to Be Dead
Kidnapping Charges Filed Against Man Last Seen With Her
ATLANTA (Jan. 5) - Authorities said Saturday they believe a hiker who disappeared from the northern Georgia woods on New Year's Day is dead, and they charged the man who was reportedly last seen with her with kidnapping.
Union County Superior Court Judge David Barrett signed a warrant charging Gary Michael Hilton with kidnapping with bodily injury in the disappearance of Meredith Emerson, said Georgia Bureau of Investigation spokesman John Bankhead.
Gary Michael Hilton, who was reportedly the last person seen with hiker Meredith Emerson on New Year's Day, was charged with kidnapping with bodily injury "based on evidence recovered in various locations."
Authorities were serving the warrant on Hilton on Saturday evening. The warrant was issued "based on evidence recovered in various locations," Bankhead said. He did not elaborate.
Bankhead said the search for the 24-year-old woman, who was hiking with her dog in the Chattahoochee National Forest, is now focused on finding her body.
"The search has changed from rescue to recovery, based on the evidence we've uncovered so far," Bankhead said.
Bankhead said he did not know if Hilton had an attorney.
Hilton is already in federal custody near Atlanta, held on a warrant for failure to appear in federal court for a charge of abandoning property in a national park.
The search continued into Saturday evening. Teams focused on a 5-square-mile area of rugged mountain territory about 90 miles north of Atlanta in the Chattahoochee National Forest, near where her car was discovered Wednesday, Bankhead said.
The search had been focused on Vogel State Park, at the base of Blood Mountain in the national forest, where Emerson was last seen on New Year's Day hiking with her black Labrador retriever, Ella.
Also on Saturday, authorities went to Forsyth County in the Atlanta suburbs, where Ella was found Friday at a grocery store, Bankhead said. Authorities identified Ella using her implanted microchip, Union County investigator Kimberly Verdone said.
Police picked up Hilton at a convenience store in the Atlanta area, Verdone said.
The Georgia Bureau of Investigation declined to specify how investigators learned Hilton's name and other details about him.
Karrenbauer described Emerson as an experienced hiker who has a blue belt in martial arts. Other friends said she was familiar with the trail near where her car was found, having jogged on it several times with a partner.
Emerson, formerly of Longmont, Colo., recently moved to Buford, Ga., a suburb of Atlanta.
Vogel is one of Georgia's oldest and most popular state parks. The area includes a segment of the Appalachian Trail, the famous hiking route that stretches from Georgia to Maine.
What is the point of posting the story about the hiker, Max?
That she should have had a gun?
Bad things happen. All the time. It's horrible horrible horrible what has happened (we assume) to this young woman.
Would a gun have saved her? Or was one used on her? We won't know until the authorities find her. If they ever do.
Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi
__________________
"My darling girl, when will you understand that 'normal' is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage." - Alice Hoffma
Don't pay any attention to the gun behind the curtain?
What is the point of posting the story about the hiker, Max?*lcloud
Public information! Think twice before hiking?
That she should have had a gun?*lcloud
Yep and a big one if possible!
Bad things happen. All the time. It's horrible horrible horrible what has happened (we assume) to this young woman.*lcloud
Bad and Evil things happen all the time. Like Bush invading Iraq, like getting a IRS audit for the 3rd time in a row, A old friend calls from the county jail and wants you to bond him out, your ex wife decides since you have married again, she wants more child support even though the child is 27 and working on his or her masters degree and thinking it might want a PHD in the future. You have made Homeland Security profile and person of interest list and never knew it until you try to board a plane to Washington, because your next door neighborhood watch republican neighbor said you voted for Kerry in 04. You have just learn that you are Liddy Dole 1st remove brother by another father you had no idea about in your family history. You were so piss off about politics that when you voted in the Iowa primary for Ron Paul it ended up in Hillary vote count....You just found out that your app to join the Mormon Church and five other Religious orders were rejected because you listed your previous spiritual past as a atheist. A UN offical just gave you a legal notice to appear in a World Court trial where you are the main witness in a class action suit that the Pope personally told you to deny that he was a male stipper in a San Francisco Bathhouse 40 years ago.
Would a gun have saved her? Or was one used on her? We won't know until the authorities find her. If they ever do. *lcloud
Yep! And also having a jogging partner who works for the Military Police.
Most shot shells for water fowl are now
using steel shot. Just the fact's...I don't hunt anything anymore. Used to be an avid duck and quail hunter because I enjoyed the outdoors and the camaraderie....and the eating was fine.
Now...I just like to look and live and let live.
It's always interesting to me to hear the fringes on both sides of the gun argument. Parmea was a voice of reason...the rest, not so much.
I have a concealed carry permit and have for years.
In all those years I've pulled my pistol only once and it was here in NC ...although I was not a resident at the time...but had a permit from a reciprocal State. The other party, a large person unknown to me and coming upon me unexpectedly, clearly demonstrated he intended to do harm to me and my wife. I pulled my weapon and he turned and ran.
End of story. This story could have had several other outcomes....none good for somebody.
In all the years I've been alive I've never heard of a single instance of a person with a concealed carry permit using their weapon under circumstances where the use was questionable. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened...it's just very unusual.
Stan Bozarth
WAS???
I am not dead yet!
But thanky!
This is how I see most carrier gun holders operating. You are not out looking for a fight. You do not want to pull that gun. That is the last thing you hope you ever have to do.
I carried a weapon on watch while in the Navy. I hated that thing on my hip. I hated the potential of what it represented. Of what would happen if I had to utilize it. Not every time I stood the watch did I have a weapon. Every time I had that thing I was thinking about how I would use it if required. When to pull it and when not to. People who legally carry, think this also. We acknowledge the responsibility of that weapon and for our potential actions.
All of us who legally carry a weapon think about the consequences of pulling that thing out of its holster. Of pointing it at someone. Of pulling that trigger. We flat never want to.
Do not fear a person who is legally carrying a gun.
Fear the guy who is illegally carrying. He is scared, has not thought about what this weapon could do, does not fully realize what he will do once he pulls that trigger. Will fire first, Will fire from fear. Will fire way more then needed, wont care what is down range. Even if we get rid of all the legal guns, the concerns people have with bad people shooting them will still be there.
192,000,000 guns in the country. We cannot get 20,000,000 illegal immigrants out of the country because it would be to difficult. Yet we feel we can get 192,000,000 out of the country. Is that 192 million only the legal guns? If so, we got a few more to get rid of.
Again, the gun does not make a person bad, the person makes himself a bad person.
I was responsible for training shipmates on the use, handling, deployment etc of weapon teams to protect my ship. Part of that training had me going against others in bad vs good guy fights. I knew every weapon on the ship was without rounds. I knew all the people in the training scenario. I knew the rules of engagement for that scenario (I made the rules). I made my guys think.
I had training on weapons. Others get training. I think people who have carry permits are trained in the rules of deadly force as well as the rules of escalation. When to shoot, when to walk away even when they have a gun.
Bad people do not receive this training. Bad people just do what bad people want. If that means stomping on your head, cutting you with a knife, running you over with a car, or just shooting you, they will.
Please do not lump good people who respect you, them self, the rights of others with bad people. Please do not give an inanimate object life. A gun sitting on a table can never fire on its own. It requires a person to make it go bang.
Ok...OK...my bad tense...
IS....a voice of reason.
Stan Bozarth
Where do you people
get your reality?
Have any of you been in a National Park lately? They are becoming havens for the homeless, druggies and vagrants. A lot of parks are beginning to resemble places you don't go in your big cities.
It doesn't always resemble your trip to the great outdoors you take via The Discovery Channel.
Citizens who have permits for guns have had some sort of training, background checks and are familiar with self defense laws.
Permits for concealed weapons have been issued in NC for a decade now.
When was the last time you recall seeing a report of a citizen with a legal permit breaking the law? There are no shoot outs in the streets.
I'll continue to carry my concealed weapon, just as thousands do in NC and millions throughout the country and most of you will remain blissfully oblivious, because they are concealed and we are trained, law-abiding citizens who only want to defend ourselves and our families.
By the way, regarding the story Max posted....the person of interest in the story is also a person of interest in the bludgeoning death of an 87 year old female hiker in Pisgah National Forest - her elderly husband's body has yet to be located.
I get my reality from actually being out there.
Did you read my first post - 3000+ miles hiked which amounts to 8-9 months of my life spent in parks and wildlands.
But there is really no point discussing this with you and Parmea. My views are rather set in stone as (I suspect) are yours and Parmea's.
I see America's obsession with guns as borderline psychotic. The arguements for guns usually center on the notion that they make society safer and that private gun ownership somehow keeps national leaders from becoming tyrants.
Guns haven't made the USA safer. We lead the world in deaths by gun per capita and are three times Canada, 30 times England and something like 250 times Japan's rates. Durham has more gun deaths than Japan.
The leading democracies other than the USA remain democracies, arguably functioning way better than ours in light of the 2000 and 2004 elections here and the trampling of key parts of the Constitution by the Bush administration. I guess since he hasn't trampled on the second amendment, gun owners haven't felt a need to march on Washington chanting "Sic semper tyrannis".
Guns have a wrongness about them akin to nuclear power and tobacco use, and our obsession with them is a sign that the USA is stuck in a rather protracted and dangerous adolescence.
I would rather progress toward a future that has fewer guns and so less gun violence. Keeping guns out of National Parks is one way to decrease the prevalence of gun culture in the good ole USA. To me, that's a good thing.
Person County Democrats
Person County Democrats
Dang, I like nuclear power also!
Yes I do. As an alternative source to oil, yes, I would love for more nuke plants to be put in North Carolina. I would also like to see more money spent on a method of making the rods and other contaminated items safer for the environment. It can happen. People in the 19th century felt that the only way to get a light to burn was from whale fat. People stood up, fought that perception and found other ways to light our houses etc. We still have whales in the ocean that otherwise would have been wiped out.
People also said in the 1960s that Kennedy was a nut case for saying by 1969 we could get a man to the man and safely bring him back. Guess what, we did it.
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My perception of guns is they are inanimate objects. A tool. They only reflect the owners temperament. By them selfs they cannot do anything.
If you removed every gun from the country. Guess what????? people will find a different way of killing each other. Then we gotta get rid of that number one killer.
You provided us with the numbers, I just showed you where guns are not the devastating objects that make our lives terrible.
I acknowledge that if we got rid of every gun then there would not be anyone killed as a result of guns. But are guns so horrific that they need to be removed?
You do not like guns, no problem. Do not have one.
I do not have a problem with guns in my community. I do not feel they make my community safer or more dangerous.
In 2004, 42,836 people where killed by vehicles in some fashion. Vehicles killed more people then guns did in 2004. Do we need to get rid of vehicles to make people safer? What would happen if we removed every vehicle from the country? I grant you that no one would die as a result of a vehicle.
I do not fear cars either. They are part of our culture. Only when someone drives their car improperly or dangerously does that car become a weapon of destruction. Until that time, they are tools utilized by people of the community. Accidents happen, tires blow out, etc causing people to die. 16 - 18 year olds die to vehicles. The same arguments being used to ban guns can be used to ban vehicles. Cars kill.
I accept that guns are tools.
Wonderful
I'm surprised we haven't crossed paths. I've been regularly backpacking and hiking since the early '70's. I've done quite a bit of the Appalachian trail and covered most of Pisgah and the Smokies not to mention state parks all over the Southeast.
You have been very lucky that you haven't encountered any more problems than sleeping snakes in the 8 to 9 months you've been on the trail.
I tend to go deep into the woods. Bad guys are usually too lazy to hike 10 or 15 miles to steal a backpacker's sleeping bag. The biggest problems I encounter are parking lots and easily accessible overlooks etc. Locked cars parked in remote areas are prime targets when it's assumed you're gone overnight. Have you ever come back into a parking lot after a hike to catch someone peering into the windows of all the cars parked there? I have.
I don't fear the creatures in the forests. But I've had more than a few unpleasant incidences with humans
I guess the time I was the most scared was camping in a campground in a state park near the coast. I heard two men talking outside my tent after going to bed. One was explaining to the other that really all you had to do was to start stomping and kicking the end of the tent where he thought the heads were and after a few blows you could take anything you wanted.
I stayed up all night with a friggin' folding camp shovel for protection.
Never again.
Those of you who wish to offer yourselves up as human sacrifices to the human predators of our world shouldn't deny the rest of us the right to do otherwise.
You can't wish this problem away.
This is not a solution, just a different formula.
Firearms (especially handguns) are a favorite target for thieves; they have a high-dollar value and are easily resold on the streets. A hiker/camper may have a few hundred dollars worth of stuff under normal conditions (even a GPS is much cheaper than it used to be), but add a decent handgun and they're now worth a thousand bucks or so.
It's just a new formula for the bad guys, by adding both incentives (more valuable goods) and disincentives (might get shot by hiker), and it's very possible the two would even each other out, making the (average) camper neither less nor more safe in the end.
Bad guys may be crazy,
...but they ain't dumb.
If firearms are OK'd in Nat'l. Parks they'll follow the path of least resistance and start hanging out in the parking lot of the local Progressive Democrat party office.
Wake up folks if you don't take responsibility for your own well-being - no one else will either.
You want to know what they'll do?
The same thing they're doing now—waiting for gun owners to go to work (or camping), so they can break into their house and steal the rest of their gun collections.
How many guns do you own?
I used to have a few, until I got a call at work one day asking me to come home and provide a list of what had been stolen:
Sony PS2
Nintendo 64
assorted games for the two
5 cd changer (they left the rest of my stereo)
7.62 mm Chinese SKS assault rifle
.380 Russian Makharov pistol
Of course, none of these things were ever recovered, and I can't adequately describe my continued worries over who handled those weapons, where they ended up and what crimes they may have facilitated.
Were they stolen out of your gun safe?
?
William (B.J.) Lawson, M.D.
Congressional Candidate, North Carolina's 4th District
Ultra-secret hiding place. :(
The pistol was in a small lockbox which made it easy to carry away, and the rifle was hanging by a strap in the closet, safely concealed (I thought) inside the lapels of a jacket.
I never said I was smart. :)
No Need to Argue
It has been done pretty effectively. I figured I just list a couple of the absurd quotes from the original post.
The law against guns in the parks makes the parks gun free just like other laws against things like murder, stealing, speeding, etc. have eliminated that behavior.
See above or see post about animals and humans attacking park visitors.
I bet it just kills the doomsdayers that their predictions of a "wild west" atmosphere never came true after concealed carry laws were enacted in NC and other states. Now they think things will be different in national parks? Of course, they shouldn't allow rifles and shotguns as then you might run into uncertainties over illegal hunting, but permitted carrying of self-defense weapons shouldn't cause any problems.
Thank you again
I want to thank everyone for their comments. I hope the orginal post served as a way to begin a dialogue that we can continue in the coming months.
The debate of whether or not hikers should be armed in our national parks is one small piece of a much larger issue. One of our largest priority this year is working to improve the statewide reporting system for folks denied a concealed weapon permit. As you most likely know when someone is denied in one county this information is rarely reported to other county Sheriff's departments. Creating a more than fair chance they can receive a permit in another county.
I know many people view gun control as a fringe issue-- on either side. Judging from the number of comments and the strength of these comments, I'd said this issue does matter.
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NCGV
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NCGV
Huh?
One of our largest priority this year is working to improve the statewide reporting system for folks denied a concealed weapon permit. As you most likely know when someone is denied in one county this information is rarely reported to other county Sheriff's departments. Creating a more than fair chance they can receive a permit in another county.
I don't understand where you're coming from on this. The regulations for obtaining a CHP (concealed handgun permit) is the same in every NC county.
As you most likely know ....
An applicant must undergo training in a state certified class. There are criminal (FBI) and mental background checks. These do not vary from county to county.
It is very unlikely anyone who could not qualify for a CHP in one NC county would qualify in another. These are state regulations.
Not to mention:
from the NCDOJ's website:
Looking at the list (by county) of permits granted (or denied), it appears there are a whole lot more applications pending than have been awarded or denied, so it looks like somebody somewhere (SBI?) is swamped...
Shall Issue
NC is considered a "shall issue" state, meaning that if an applicant successfully completes the training and the backgrounds checks are satisfactory, then the local sheriff has no option but to grant the permit.
I think there are a lot of sheriffs that begrudge being told they have to issue these permits - can't play politics.
They can slow down the process, but if the permit is not issued within 90, by state law, the sheriff has to explain in writing why the permit has not been issued.
I'm sure NC CHP permits are pretty low on the SBI's list of priorities.