Rubbish
Submitted by jjsmith on Tue, 05/29/2007 - 1:03pm
Senator Hoyle (Gaston County) has produced a biodiesel bill, which can only be classified as: "Rubbish." Senate Bill 1149 would do nothing but hinder the biofuels industry in North Carolina. The bill attempts to remove one of the largest buyers of diesel from the Biofuels market, schools. If his plan were to go through, $5 million would be appropriated to schools in North Carolina to begin the production of their own biodiesel. What type of insanity is this? Why should taxpayer money be allocated for further pie-in-the-sky works that would add nothing to the economy of the North Carolina. We are trying to establish a biofuels industry in North Carolina and Senator Hoyle wants the State to run it. Let the market determine which companies to support. This may sound like a novel idea to Senator Hoyle, but let's have the companies who are skilled at producing biodiesel produce biodiesel and let's let the schools do their job, Teach. Before we can afford to turn school campuses throughout North Carolina into industrial plants, I suggest we improve the academic output. Luckily this ill-conceived plan is not in the budget, yet. Senator Hoyle, Good day, sir.
He's a developer.
There's something rotten in here somewhere.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
How Many Times Do We
Have to reinvent the wheel?
What's next? The written language?
Give it a pass; next.
think about this
I actually snorted when I read this. How....free market fundy of you. Ew.
Think about it. Given the amount of money proposed - $5 million, the number of school districts in the state - 117, and the number of buses - 13,519 as of the 2004-2005 school year, the chances of the grants dipping into your pocket is very slim. In fact, figuring the cost of biodiesel at $3.00 (cheep!!!), and estimating that the average school bus holds 50 gallons, $5 million would only fill all of those buses about two and a half times.
But that's irrelevant. If this is approached correctly, it could be an enormous opportunity for schools AND for the biodiesel industry.
You betcha - that is their job. Why? Because as a society, we've decided that we need to be educated. As a burgeoning industry, biodiesel needs good public relations AND it will need a work force interested and prepared to show up. The small amounts of the grants - they're capped at $1,000,000 - mean that the larger school districts that might have the capacity to actually take advantage of this would still need to create partnerships with industry to really make it work. Allowing students to actually have laboratory experience in the industry would give hands on educational experience (read that as teaching) to students who would then take a personal interest in the industry. There are students who would be interested in becoming technicians as they leave high school, and there are students who would be interested in pursuing higher educational degrees in the field. A burgeoning industry would be wise to court a young workforce.
If you want to improve the academic output and at the same time make gains for your industry, perhaps you shouldn't dismiss this bill out of hand like this. If it does somehow make it into the budget (I doubt it will), then make Howard Lee your best friend, and let's get guidelines on the grant that make them true educational opportunities.
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The Den
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I'm Lost
Looking at that again and thinking about lcloud's post...
$5 million to each school? Which ones? The colleges producing fuel for the public schools?
Which part of the budget is it coming from? The schools don't have enough money sure, but $5 million seems like a drop in the bucket if you want to be serious about production. What about cost overruns? How would that be handled? What a nightmare that could turn out to be.
Wouldn't it be better for the state to find $5 million (ha ha) and put a grant out for a public/private partnership to invest in our own people and talent that are already here and doing these things?
Which schools - colleges (or vo-tech if such a thing exists here) have any kind of focus on this technology? I can see State. They're already working on hog waste to fuel. UNC? Which one?
I don't know. Investing in our own local talent seems like a better idea. They can hire people on their own payroll, pay taxes, provide jobs, have iternships ...all kinds of things that the state really can't afford to do all by itself.
If the state tried to do all that - well, there goes all your profit. (IMO)
I'm tired. But I promise I'll think about it when I'm not tired.
Is this coming to the floor? soon? eegads.
Not to each school
The entire appropriation is $5 million dollars - for the entire state. No one school administration unit (language from the bill) would get more than $1million dollars.
In the grand scheme of things, it's a small amount of money - not enough to hurt the biodiesel industry as jjsmith claimed (in my opinion).
When they're talking about the State Board of Education, they're talking about the Public Schools, grades K-12 (generally), not the colleges. Public schools are the ones with the buses, after all.
It seems to me that all advocates of renewable energy and of putting NC on the map as a leader in bio-fuels would just at the chance to work with the legislature and the state board of education on an opportunity like this one. The so-called free market by itself will not magically make NC first in biodiesel - or anything else. It's a brave new world, and the winning formula is public/private partnerships. Winners at the game will understand that the only thing that will work is communication and cooperation between all interested sectors.
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This is precisely what is wrong with the plan
The state is already reticent about putting more money into the biofuels industry. Why then, would we want to put $5 million into a black hole? This plan is nothing more than an attempt to take the industry over in the state. In order for the biofuels industry to grow in North Carolina, the producers need an outlet for their product and the school systems are one of the largest purchasers.
Once the industry starts to make money, they can expand and introduce the product into new markets. If a plan like this is allowed to go forward, it will cripple the biofuels industry, which isn't doing too well now.
A better option would be to take that $5 million and create a biofuels incentive fund and allow the experts in the field (those producing) to get the industry running at high speed.
A healthy biofuels industry is more than the environment. It's industry and the health of the economy.
I See - Sort of
Really, IMO, what can K-12 do about working in biofuels? Being a "consumer" of them I can see but in development, research, and implementation - I just don't see that. Are they covered under OSHA?
Oh, I agree. It would be a great opportunity to develop this.
But done unwisely - it could be a money sucking failure rather than a money generating model - which it very well could be if done properly.
I'm of two minds about that. If we're really good at it - even more people will want to move here. (NO! Please, sob, sob, sob. I moved here because it was rural. Tears of joy, tears of pain) Ahem. Sorry about that.
Is a dangerous thing when left to its own devices.
History has proven that. At least in this country. Leave them alone to develop and initiate but don't leave them alone to provide accountability. Most industries do a terrible job at that. Fox in the henhouse, much? Gads.
It seems to me
that colleges would be a perfect place to produce biofuels.
They have the time to do inovation and research and if they're good at it, they could just start selling the biofuel they make to the public schools who would no longer have the need to pay for petroleum products.
That seems like a tiddy plan that wouldn't take much more than seed money from the state.
Progressives are the true conservatives.
Sounds good on the surface
But once again, it removes job development through industry. We should be encouraging economic development in the State, not stifling it. Sure, do the research in the academic setting, but in reality, biodiesel has been around since the beginning of the diesel engine. Not much more research needs to be done on it, except for new feedstock.
I firmly believe that government should be in charge of naturally inefficient necessities, fire, police, military, roads, etc, but when it comes to industry help it at first then let the market take over. This is about job and economic development.
Sen. Hoyle's bill does not create jobs, nor does it help the economy.
And if this is shown to be a failure as it will inevitably will, it will drag the entire biofuels industry down with it.
Agreed,
I didn't really mean to sound like I was endorsing his bill, just that if colleges making biodiesel is a sound prospect then it should be self sustaining. By all means, let the the state money accelerate the industry so that NC can be a leader in alternative fuels.
and have I mention HEMP lately?
HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP HEMP
Progressives are the true conservatives.
Hemp
Whenever someone brings up hemp I cannot help but recall visions of all those stoners at UNC with their booths in the Pit seeking to legalize hemp. I've never met young people more passionate about textiles, paper, and rope as they seemed to be. :-)
If only they realized
that smoking hemp just gives you a headache and not a high.
If only they realized
what a fantastic crop it would be for this state to replace the tobacco worn fields and give us the blessings of energy independence and so much more.
hemp for biofuel
check out the car that drove 13,000 miles on hemp biodiesel
Progressives are the true conservatives.
let the market take over?
But you said yourself that the industry isn't doing too well. How is $5 million dollars going to hurt your industry? (I'm assuming now that it's your industry.) Why hasn't the market worked yet? Why wouldn't encouraging schools to create their own biodiesel be good for the industry for the industry as a whole?
What is your vested interest that makes you speak against schools?
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The Den
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Many reasons
The $5 Million will hurt the industry; because this plan will accomplish nothing in terms of developing biodiesel. The paltry amount of biodiesel the school systems will be able to develop will serve as a black hole for that $5 million. Furthermore, it will cause the State to spend money on a product, which it can make money from.
The market hasn't accepted biodiesel yet; because market saturation is no where near the needed level to bring prices down to demand. There are only 5 major producers of biodiesel in North Carolina, we need more.
Encouraging schools to create biodiesel takes the market away from the consumers. It takes jobs away, it takes taxes away. Schools creating their own biodiesel makes poor sense. Besides, this wouldn't be some sort of educational experience for the students. Biodiesel has to meet rigorous testing standards and the schools are not equipped to handle that. Furthermore, it is not evident that the biodiesel that would be produced on the cheap by the schools would meet the ASTM standard for biodiesel and would consequentially void the warranties on the school buses. This is bad policy. Creating biodiesel is more than just getting some waste oil and filtering it.
My interest in the biofuel industry is purely personal in that I want North Carolina to become a leader in biofuels. I want to be able to buy biofuels at my local gas station. And I'm not against schools. I'm against this bad legislation.
I shouldn't have said
"why are you against the schools?" That's like asking "why are do you hate freedom?" I try not do be like that. You just really hit one of my hot buttons. I am sorry for the tone of my disagreement with you.
That's why I suggested public/private partnerships. By thinking outside the box, school systems and the industry can work together to educate students as to what those testing standards are - at the industry location. In this way, the school would not have to create the facility, it would only have to create the partnership. How would the industry benefit? Selling the biodiesel to the school, and taking advantage of the incentive offered in SB 1451, which would pay 30 cents on the gallon to biodiesel producers, up to $1 million dollars a year. School buses will probably be required to use biodiesel any way by July 2008 (SB 1452 - I might have the bill numbers backwards). By thinking outside the box, and creating partnerships like the one I suggest, the industry will do more than promote itself. It will show that NC is a leader not only in biofuels, but in education as well. If we want to really move ahead, we've got to be willing to do that.
I don't think this is bad legislation, in and of itself. It depends on what the State Board of Education does with it - if it passes. I don't think that Clean Energy advocates should dismiss it out of hand.
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No one is against this as an education model
But this bill wouldn't do that and it shouldn't serve as the vehicle for doing so.
Are there any RURAL Ag Stations left?
The one on 70 outside of Clayton isn't rural anymore.
Or the one in Raleigh ...
or the one where the cows hung out on the way to Knightdale ...
How much space would one of those take to operate efficiently?
The Ag Stations
Should help educate the farmers on what feedstock to grow. Rapeseed is far better environmentally than soy, but the farmers are unaware that they can get a bigger bang for the buck with rapeseed, with only minor modifications to their equipment. The ag stations should be educating the farmers in these terms.
Yes, You are RIGHT
I was kind of thinking about facilities construction.
If the state does this w/o public/private partnership - is the state going to have to buy the land, too?
That's where that train was heading.
Have I derailed myself again? Ya'll make me think too much. It's giving me a headache. And I say that in the nicest possible way. LOL.
I need more info,
but I don't (so far) see much of a downside to this. With the schools and the private sector both working on ways to innovate production, they should (theoretically) develop more efficient methods.
Schools being the biggest market should be a flag in itself that the industry is having trouble promoting the technology, and it also means there's already a massive amount of taxpayer's money going into this anyway. I'm not really sure this five million is wasteful spending, if it introduces a more "energetic" approach to the research.
There is no research under this plan
There is none. This piece of legislation would not add to the research going on in the biofuels industry in this state. It would give money to the local school districts to have someone at the motorpool to create biodiesel. We're not talking about colleges and universities with this legislation. We're talking about K-12. Once the equipment is purchased, feedstock purchased, testing completed and you've extinguished the grant. Causing the local school districts to spend more money to hire someone and to produce the biodiesel. It also doesn't take into account the training necessary to pull this off. This plan would end up costing the State millions of dollars and would do nothing to help the industry grow.
If this plan were enacted, its failings would drag the entire biofuels industry with it. Individuals would point to this idea as why biofuels can never work. It hampers development.
There is nothing good about this.
Hmm.
When someone who has been telling me to "let the market decide, let the market decide" tells me that something will hamper development, I have to think that it might be a good thing.
As for there being a plan, here is the bill:
That's it - the whole thing.
So there's no plan. Any other "plan" was just me spitballing why this might not be such a bad idea. Personally, I trust the State Board of Education to be smart about this. I'm not going to reiterate anything about public/private partnerships, or being innovative and promoting the industry in a positive way by using the schools and private industry to teach. You've not offered any links to back up why you think this is bad -you've only said "This is bad" and "Let the market decide". Those sound distinctly like republican sound bites. I see no reason why anyone should listen to those ideas. If this bill becomes law, smart school administrators will be looking for industry leaders with whom to collaborate to make the system in place work for the entire community's benefit - not just the school's, and not just the industry. The only responsible way to move North Carolina forward is through collaboration and communication.
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I had typed out a long explanation of why this plan won't work..
but i lost my connection. Here is the short answer.
With a $1,000,000 grant, we're looking at 14.5 weeks of fuel produced for the school system like Wake County (one that would take advantage of this). In this calculation, I did not take in the cost of lye, or the cost of housing the materials necessary to make the biodiesel. I also didn't take into account the cost of training, or the inherent dangers associated with mixing lye or methanol. I also didn't account for the disposal of the waste products. What about paying the person to create the biodiesel? That's probably another $35,000. So this 14.5 weeks of biodiesel produced is now looking to be around 9 or so.
That's the money trap I'm talking about. Schools produce biodiesel for one semester from the grant and have to pay another $1,000,000 for the rest of the school year.
The reason why biofuels will not take off accordingly is because of schemes such as this. People will think of it as being a black hole and support from legislatures will diminish.
Instead, why not have companies who know what they are doing create the biodiesel and sell it? why have the schools involved in something they have no business being involved with in the first place? Why not create an industry in the state, instead of having the state run it?
Just because the market decides who has the better product and which company to support doesn't mean there isn't governmental oversight.
You totally don't get what I'm saying.
And I do get what you're saying. I just don't agree.
The state wouldn't be running it, in the model I posit. I realize that there are myriad costs involved - which is why I suggested that that public/private partnerships between school systems and industry would be the best way to approach the grants created by this bill - if it even passes.
SB 1451 will provide 30 cents per gallon to producers of biodiesel, for the first 2,500,000 gallons produced. After that, it will provide 10 cents per gallon, up to $1,000,000 annually. The payments will continue until 2014. That sounds like trying to create an industry to me.
The "ill-conceived" plan that you complain of is not evident anywhere - because no plan has been posited, except for the one I posited last night. I think you've created a straw man and are systematically trying to knock it down.
By SB1452, School buses will be required to use biodiesel by July 1, 2008. Giving them the opportunity to create even a semester's worth of fuel frees up funds for other purposes. If the transportation department actually pays the system for the fuel - one department paying another is not uncommon within large systems - then a small profit could be turned, and while it might not be self-sustaining, it might generate enough to purchase more from private industry in your limited last century model of totally separate public vs. private institutions.
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I'm still wondering
how allowing (helping) schools to gear up for biodiesel production would only gve them a finite/limited potential. Once they're up and running, won't the costs per gallon drop considerably, to a fraction of what we (the taxpayers) pay the companies?
If we want to let the schools do what they should be doing, maybe we should consider how this (possible) fuel self-sufficiency would open their budgets up to textbooks and supplies, instead of worrying how much money will be left after buying the tens of thousands of gallons it takes to pick up/drop off kids every month (week?).
schools producing biodiesel...
won't do anything to the cost of biodiesel. The only way to have the prices of biodiesel drop is to expand market saturation.
The bulk of the cost in producing the biodiesel after the initial purchase of equipment is the feedstock. Feedstock prices are not going down anythime soon. the fact of the matter is, there is no self sufficiency when it comes to producing energy. If it weren't for the tax cuts that are currently going to the biofuel producers, biofuels would be far more costly than regular petroleum products.
Get the industry running before we try to re-invent the wheel. Production of biofuel at a school is far too cost prohibitive to run throughout the state or in as little as 5 school districts.
If it's done properly,
I think it could work very well for the school system that is able to take advantage of the opportunity. And yes, it could save the taxpayer money.
If schools are actually able to buy textbooks and supplies - can you imagine? All that teaching and academic performance that gets whined about might improve just a little bit.
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Okay, Okay -Hold Up
First thought:
$5 million - in my mind that's not much to get a project of this magnitude producing anything economically by the schools.
Especially not if you're talking about all of them. How many units are we talking there? Divvy it up equally? Facilities for producing in a school yard or county maintenance yard somewhere? That just doesn't square in my mind in how this industry operates.
I don't see the schools being the biggest market. I see the schools, i.e. their buses, being *a* market but not the only market. Doesn't anyone realize the fuel can be sold to other markets? Your neighbor's SUV; the farmer's tractor; the NCAT buses; heck - think big - sell it to CP&L. Yeah, I know, 'Progress Engergy'.
One big advantage I imagine is taking care of a school's waste stream. Instead of paying Waste Management to haul away their 'squashies' - send them off to be recycled into fuel. Can all their waste be recycled that way? Of course not.
Think of it as composting for the public good.
Frankly, we've never lost any kind of race to SC ...to my knowledge ... I'd hate to lose this one. We could gain a lot in NC from this. We could lose big time and cost the taxpayers a whole lot of money at the same time if it's done half assed and with no forethought.
Another question: How conversant in this technology IS the sponsor of the bill? Or the person who wrote the bill? You can't ask for something that you don't know exists. I'm not an expert on these systems by any means but I know what I know and that is: the possibilities are staggering.
Anecdote time: When I was in Tallahassee, I remember reading in the paper about this man whose house abutted a landfill. This guy was in the paper because the Landfill authority wanted him to stop doing something.
What that something was is this. The man was tapping off their methane vents and using that methane to produce ENERGY for his own use. IIRC, he was running generators or something like that. (This was ~1993; I don't remember all the details.)
My thought was this: Are ya'll crazy? This man took something you're throwing out, something a landfill has to get rid of somehow - you should be asking him how to do it for yourselves and paying him to show you how. DUH.
Legalese makes my eyes bleed. I'll look at this one, too. Where are these existing facilities in NC? Anywhere close to me? I'll look at them, too. (If ya want me to) I'm always willing to listen and learn about something I'm interested in.
In closing, $5 million can make a difference in the right hands; $15 million wouldn't be enough in the wrong hands.
Oh, and did I mention? I don't have to be told to 'think outside the box' because I've never been inside a box. I'm the one who's always been on the outside looking in.
As of right now
Schools would be the biggest market for biodiesel in the State of North Carolina.
And sadly, we are losing to the State of South Carolina when it comes to the biofuel industry.
... as of right now ...
can't anyone in this country think further ahead than next week?
Not you jj. I mean the whole rest of the country of naysayers. The ones that ignore science and industry.
Who was it here a few months ago asking about 'Innovations for NC'. I don't want to say a name because I'm not like a lot of people here - I don't know many other NC'ers personally.
Especially natives. So I don't want to attribute one person's ideas to the wrong person.
Who am I talking about folks?
It couldn't be all of them.
There are 117 school districts in NC. I would expect that only 5 or 6 of them could realistically take advantage of this type of grant. I know that the school district I live in could not realistically do it.
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I'm not talking about
schools lowering the cost of biodiesel on the market as a whole, I'm talking about them (a specific school) lowering the cost of their own fuel usage.
Unless I'm missing something, after the initial start-up costs, biodiesel can be produced for about a dollar a gallon. Meaning they're saving a dollar (at least) a gallon, giving them a fairly quick ROI and subsequently costing taxpayers half as much as before.
And frankly, hoping that expanding the market will lower the price of fuel seems a little naive to me. Especially when I struggle through traffic with the thousands of other drivers and pay $3.00 per gallon.
As a matter of fact...wouldn't taking away the captive market of school buses force biodiesel suppliers to lower their prices and/or vigorously pursue other markets, such as consumers who don't use enough fuel personally to buy their own set-up?
I see where you're coming from
That would be nice. I think the point jjsmith was making is:
what do the schools have to use to produce the fuel itself?
Where are they going to get the input, the raw material to begin this process?
Is this a 'combined' process like the one discussed previously (I think you missed that one, sc) like Tyson's chicken guts being mixed with existing hydrocarbon sources?
Or is this a different process without hydrocarbon input (much, at all - ) I don't know that part. That's why I want to go see the places that exist in NC. To see how it works.
There is a project going on RIGHT NOW - to make biodiesel from hog waste. That yucky stuff hanging out in lagoons making themselves a problem. IIRC - legislation has already been passed to make those things go away.
So what do you do with that 'stuff'? You can't bury that much stuff, nor burn it; honestly, I can't think of anything useful to do with it besides turn it into fertilizer or make it into something you can run a vehicle with. Just that part alone is mind blowing to me.Poop to fuel. Wow.
Do schools have access to anything like that? To use as the base material? Would they have to buy 'stuff'. I don't know.
Ask an expert. It isn't me. I'm just a perennial curious >''<
They would have to buy
raw feedstock, even if they could use much of their own biowaste. And they would have to hire at least one person to operate the system (like jj said), as they would need to run it several hours a day, because (here's the important part) each medium to large school uses thousands of gallons of fuel each week.
In other words, each school is a big enough consumer to absorb the intial costs of installing its own system, and distribute the annual income of an operator to five or ten cents cost per gallon. The buses need to be retrofitted whether they buy fuel from outside sources or make their own, so that cost doesn't come into play in this comparison.
Even if they do have to buy stuff and hire a person, if they can make their own fuel for half the cost, that leaves a whole lot of money for other (education) things that North Carolina is struggling to accomodate.
It's at least worth a few pilot programs to see what they can do.
Can one person effectively run a system?
Where do you locate the production facility?
I'm still not seeing one of these hanging out on a campus. At least not a K-12 campus.
How much space does one take? One acre? Two, five, fifteen?
I don't know about everywhere in NC but don't most buses belong to a fleet? Sure, they get assigned to a school, but when they're being actively being used, they're at the school. For the summer, they go back to the barn. Isn't that right?
So let's use Johnston for an example. Which school gets the facility? Selma? North Johnston? Clayton? Clayton HS really doesn't have any spare space. West Johnson might. SS might. So they get to make their own fuel and the rest of the county gets buptkiss? Is that how it would work?
I can see a lot of unhappy campers right there. A lot of our schools east of 95 are already missing out. The money is being sucked over to the west side to accommodate growth. Poke 'em in the eye like that again - whew. I wouldn't want to be the one to explain why one got picked and another didn't.
Even at the county level that could get ugly real fast.
I can see a lot of unhappy
It's not for individual schools. It's for individual school systems. In an (god I've got to say that damn word again) innovative program - the students would go to where the program is. Even [gasp] to an existing production facility where the school system has used its funds to create classroom /laboratory/observation space - where plant engineers can collaborate with science (and business) teachers to help students understand the process. This would give the schools the money to hire the people they need purchase the raw materials they need, hire the extra teachers they need, etc.
And it is a pilot program. They happen all the time. There aren't usually "hard feelings" over them. Honestly.
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I'm also seeing some references
to "bioheat", which seems to be a very promising avenue for heating classrooms in the winter, which currently also runs into the millions each year.
This area of technology should be vigorously explored by all of us, and not left to the vagaries of industry, where it may succeed or fail depending on the bottom line or conflicting priorities.
Geothermal energy
fascinates me. Unfortunately, I have very little time to do a lot of research about it. I read an article in a magazine at the office a few months ago, meant to bring it home for my husband to read, and unfortunately, someone else scooped it up. It was written in layman's terms. But the gist of it was that all of the energy we need to heat our homes, etc., is already in the earth. It's just heat.
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Geothermal
is the way to go. After a ground loop is installed, the amount of energy needed to compress or expand the air temperature is minimal. The only problem with geothermal is the start up costs and the space needed for the ground loop.
one last thing on schools making biodiesel.
Are they now going to make their own paper? Textbooks? Pencils?
Having the schools go into production only increases the strain on the schools. It doesn't lessen it at all.
With commercial biodiesel running 2.89 a gallon
and I were running a fleet of 13,700 buses, I sure as hell would be looking into making my own fuel. Maybe I'd save enough money to actually buy decent textbooks so that the students who wound up running things 20 years from now would make better decisions, and we'd wind up running school buses on something even more friendly to the earth. Like this. Watch it - it's amazing.
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I'm still trying to figure out
Why you want to turn our schools into industrial plants.
Me, too
OSHA
Reading, writing, arithmetic. Public/Private partnerships - cool. Fire away.
K-12?
I'm a huge fan of biodiesel
and spend lots of time around local operations where they make the stuff on a small scale.
We definitely don't want this going on at school facilities unless you want to see a Mad Max scenario unfolding around our kids and teachers.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
I guess you haven't read my posts.
I've read yours - the least you can do is read mine.
But if you're not going to - I'm done with you.
:::shakes off dust:::
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Where do they perform maintenence
on school buses? They don't do it at the schools, they do it at some other site, where (some) probably pump their own fuel also. Which they had to buy from somewhere.
Looks like I'm going to drive around some in the next few days, tracking down the school bus motorpool (or whatever), since Google (Steve shakes his fist) ain't helping much.
They have the bus yards
The State buys the fuel for the school districts. But the problem is, making biodiesel isn't like making homebrew beer. It takes space. Why spend money on something when you can make money on something.
And the School Systems don't do their own maintenance, they farm that out to other firms because that is cheaper.
Moore County does its own maintenance.
So does Hoke.
So much for all your knowledge.
I guess folks in Raleigh don't know so much.
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The Den
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I'm confused...
who's spending the money and who's making the money?
I'm just an iggerant taxpayer, who apparently doesn't understand the economics of this. :)
2 point penalty
for lying sc.
Good question though, way to cut to the bottom line.
Schools are spending the money.
Our money. Taxpayer money. jjsmith would like for the schools to spend the money with private firms, who would tax them on the money they spend - and who would then get an incentive paid to them (30 cents on each gallon) , funded by the you and me, tax payers, so that the private industry could establish itself. It's private industry - it wants all the money.
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I Don't See it that Way
$5 million could do a lot to establish this industry in the state. To make more money for the state. It's a business - it still pays taxes. Higher taxes than you & I do. (I would hope so, anyway)
$5 million to the schools? We know what that looks like.
SB1541
There are funds for the industry appropriated in SB 1541
Do we? Each local administration unit is limited to $1,000,000. Assuming that each district that applied received the maximum, it means that 5 districts would receive $1 million each. That's a lot of money to a local school district. Even if you don't take my model of a public/private partnership, and just go with what jj seems to be assuming would happen, and turn a bus yard into an industrial site (which they already are, really), buying their fuel from themselves would give schools the opportunity to fund themselves instead of constantly looking for taxpayers to foot the bill for everything. Seems like all the anti-public school types would be for that, instead of once again attacking schools.
And I'm not convinced that the attack on this bill is not a lobbyist attempting to bring down legislation that the industry doesn't like. I'm pathologically opposed to anything that smells like a lobbyist.
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That's a lot of money to a
One. One out of how many?
1x5 = how many?
I DO agree with you there. I think that's the smartest thing NC can do. I've said that before right here. On the 'Innovate NC' thread we had happening - and if I didn't - I know I've been talking to some people about it. It's smart.
Better to invest right here at home than offering bigass tax breaks to get some company to come here and offer jobs when they don't really starting paying for themselves til ...later.
This could pay for stuff right now. Right now. But I don't understand why you don't understand that putting an industrial operation at a school is crazy. College? Sure. K-12? What? How old would a student have to be to even take a class?
You're talking hazardous, flammable, running equipment... all kinds of things. dangerous things. I'm all for the schools getting more money. Let the taxes that these businesses will have to pay go to the schools directly. No middle man, no general fund, no rainy day fund - to the schools. Would that make you happy?
She's NOT talking about putting
an industrial operation AT a school. She said:
It's a pilot program. It would not involve all the schools in the state. Some of the larger school systems might be in a better position to try it out and see how it works. Then the rest of the school systems could learn from that experience.
The public/private partnership lcloud is talking about might be just the incentive that is needed to get a marginal operation profitable, to give them a shot in the arm - once they get up and running to provide fuel for the school buses, then they can expand their operation to provide fuel for the tractors and the trucks. I see a snowball effect here.
A couple things
1. I'm not talking about 5th graders doing this. High school students - particularly those who particpate in advanced chemistry classes - handle flammable, dangerous substances every day. Running dangerous equipment happens in the construction classes, auto shop, wood shop, etc I don't think it's unreasonable to take this on - particularly if parents are informed about any safety concerns and appropriate safety measures are taken. Furthermore - many of my son's friends - juniors in high school have volunteered for the Army National Guard. They certainly handle dangerous equipment there.
2. I'm not necessarily talking about putting "an industrial operation" at a high school compound. I'm talking about creating a classroom environment at an existing facilty, using both industry staff and professional educators to teach the science behind the technology of biodiesel, and partnering students with facility staff - in a mentorship kind of way - so that students actually learn about the production at all levels. Why is that so difficult to grasp? Is it that hard to imagine students arriving at a facilty on a magically biodiesel powered bus, entering a classroom for part of a lecture/discussion, and then putting on the protective clothing/safety equipment necessary to perform some tasks?
3.. Not all public school students go on to college. If we are to build a 21st century economy, we need to create practical high school curriculum that prepare those who are not college bound for the industry of tomorrow. This is just one way.
4. I'm not a big fan of biodiesel. It still creates greenhouse-type gasses, and while it is renewable, does nothing to reduce what I consider to be a bigger threat to our environment: global warming. Just because someone says it's great doesn't mean it is.
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Okay
I think the students should be allowed to participate age appropriately. Is there anything in this bill at all that shows some nuts and bolts?
I mean some real ideas?
A.
B.
C.a.
C.b.
C.c.
I think they should be involved. But not in charge. That is not their mission.
I would like to see a well written plan - with specifics. DETAILED specifics. More than: Here's $5 million; do something with it to make fuel.
The business would have to provide a business plan if they wanted something. The school should have to have a business plan as well if they're supposed to be acting like a business.
It's not research. It's production. 5 counties, 5 school systems trying to do something they've never done - when there are people out there who have done it. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Partner with the schools. But let each entity do what they are good at. Be specific.
The way the bill is written
the onus is on the State Board of Education to come up with a plan. The way things like this usually work is that the State Board would issue an request for proposals (RFP), listing their requirements. The list you have above is a good start - but I'm sure there would be more - including the educational requirements of the high school faculty involved, any certifications of the facility involved, the number of students, the age of the students targeted, etc. Specific lesson plans might even be required. Proposals answering RFP's like this can be as thick as books, sometimes. They would be reviewed by a committee consisting of non-conflicted (meaning no conflict of interest) parties including some Board members, some industry experts, and some community members (not from the communities affected.) The proposals would include line item budgets with explanations for each budget item. The committee would recommend to the board which proposals be funded.
Please remember, the plan presented in this thread is purely a figment of my fevered imagination.
And of course you're right - let each entity do what they are best at. That's why you have the partnership. Industry folks to guide the production, and teachers to teach. Because lord knows, you don't want some engineer with no educational background (I mean no training on how to teach) trying to teach teenagers. THAT would not go over well. At all. But by partnering, it could work. And if you're smart, you get the county's community college involved, too. Imagine - an entire community working together for the common good. Damn.
But that just might be too progressive for some.
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And If
And if their plan stinks on ice? What then? No money for you?
Back to the drawing board? Try again next year?
If it's a partnership, both entities need to be working together on the plan or it's not a partnership.
Does the State Board of Education have time to do that?
Is there anyone on it who is conversant in the technology?
They could find someone to do promo lesson plans but what about the rest?
If it's going to be a partnership it should be one from the beginning - not after the money is passed out.
Yup
Yup. That's how grants work.
I don't know. From the bill, it doesn't look like there is more than one year of funding. Can't tell.
Well, yes. That's what a partnership means. The local school administration that was interested in doing this would approach the local industry (limits the pool of potential applicants right there). Or - a truly progressive industry leader approaches a local school administrator. They work on a proposal together.
If the legislature tells them to, they have the time. :-). That's how it works, too.
I don't know - probably not. But I'm sure there are people who would be glad to tell them all about it. As scharrison said, there are lots of people who are making this stuff themselves. And there people with the state who are setting the standards for what the testing standards are. They could get people to advise them.
That's why you have the partnership between the faculty and the facility staff. And the lesson plans- again, that was just my idea, based on the kinds of things that I've had to include in grant proposals that I have written. There might not have to be actual lesson plans, but a timeline of topics to be covered.
Of course. You can't propose a partnership if you're not sure all the partners will play. Everyone has to be at the table from the beginning. Sorry - I thought that went without saying. I deal with public private partnerships almost every day, and I'm so used to it that I thought everyone would understand what I meant.
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Bwahahahaha -
Best part yet:
This bill would not create public private plans
Sen. Hoyle wants this bill to create programs in the state like what is happening in Gaston County, where the fleet manager for the school buses is creating biodiesel at the bus storage area. That's all this bill would do. There is no plan for public/private enterprises.
The School disticts would be spending money
And no one would be making money, except Carolina Polymers, in Taylors, South Carolina, who right now has the market cornered for biodiesel production in the South East. Many of the biodiesel producers (except Smoky Mountain) do not have the capacity to create the raw biodiesel. So instead, they buy the raw biodiesel and just mix it here in North Carolina.
That is what most likely would continue to happen if the school districts started producing their own biodiesel. So more or less, this money would go to create more jobs in South Carolina.
Check it out - go further, faster -
The air in the machine.
Sweet!
An air car! I love it!
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The Den
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Me too.
I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
Check out the video I posted above
The guy modified his Ford Escort, and can travel 100 miles on 4 ounces of water.
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It's your democracy; use it.
I'm kind of a newbie here,
and you could put all my knowledge of state government workings in a thimble and still have room for some other stuff, but I get the feeling there's more at work here than simple citizen advocacy.
Now, jj can call me an intractable and paranoid s.o.b. and I would award him bonus points for accuracy, but after reading his blogs here, I'm seeing a very persistent theme. That's all I'm going to say about that, because everybody should understand what I'm implying.
As far as business is concerned, I'm all for supporting legislation that evens the playing field or opposing legislation that patently makes things unfair, but what are we talking about in this case?
If these pilot programs fail, as jj has suggested several times, the private producers will lose only a tiny fraction of their sales volume for a short period of time. If that little bit is enough to throw them (deeper?) into the red, there are bigger (business plan) issues that need to be addressed.
If, on the other hand, these pilot programs do succeed, and the district's buses cost a lot less to keep on the road, where's the downside? Especially to me, as a taxpayer? Loss of sales to the industry? Expand your sales efforts, to non- or low-agrarian states who don't have the feedstock and/or desire to support their own industry.
One more observation (groan), from my quasi-Libertarian side: with all the advocating going on to support higher-volume production over small, how will that (eventually) impact the development of technology geared towards micro-production? Right now, across this country, there are individuals who are producing their own biofuels, for their own use. Granted, some of these folks are a couple of sandwiches shy of a picnic, some are ex-hippies, some are acknowledged (and proud) geeks. But, God bless 'em, they're as American as you can get, and they may be paving the way for all of us.
If the powers that be don't stop them, by passing laws that regulate and restrict.
How many times do I have to say this
The Biofuels industry in this state is weak. It is barely holding its own right now. North Carolina is so far behind the 8 ball when it comes to our neighboring states, that any plan that is doomed for failure, will indelibly make the short-sighted legislature think biofuels is some niche thing that people with nothing better to do with their time do. Funding and support for legislation helping the industry would die.
Because biodiesel was the first form of diesel and was geared towards farmers making their own fuel for their fields, the research into biodiesel as it currently stands is maxed out. Now, that said, research is going on in finding new and more efficient feedstock. Companies, mainly biodiesel coops, are producing machinery for the at home individual to use, along with an education course.
Also, what I want to see in North Carolina, is a small business approach to biofuels. We don't need what is going on in Florida and Alabama where the fuel is being produced there because of generous incentive packages and are being exploited by huge multinationals who take the money out of state. I and many others want to see North Carolina be operated by small business, community oriented companies, who have vested interest in the health of the community, rather than which state gives them the best incentive package.
Yes & No
Yes, to paranoid (that's why I like you) but no to intractable (that's also why I like you)
Absolutely. Which is why I support jj's positions. Small or medium applications within the state - no Exxons or BPs, nor any other of the 7 sisters this time. The earth is too precious to trust them on this right now.
I think what Anglico said in the first post
ought to give us enough pause to be suspicious of this bill:
On reflection, I think JJSmith is on target. If the industry is lagging behind other states, we shouldn't consider anything as complicated as involving the schools.
Progressives are the true conservatives.
Now I'm even more confused...
you're saying Smoky Mountain is the only "real" biodiesel manufacturer in North Carolina, and the rest buy from South Carolina and mix it with regular diesel to get 20/80? There's another (NC)company that last year received $1,000,000 to build a spanking new plant, including $170,000 grant from the state, so they could make a million gallons a year. Which I am going to visit very soon, so I can look at stuff that I can't understand. :)
But you also mentioned efforts to duplicate the Gaston County school operation, and you inferred that they (the schools) would be buying Biodiesel from outside the state. But doesn't the Gaston operation make it's own biofuel, and mix it with bought diesel? So the school district is making its own, and (some of) these other guys are buying from South Carolina and just mixing it, so they can sell it to me (the taxpayer).
'Splain it to me, man. But try to be patient and understanding, because I'm just a hard-headed ex-paratrooper who made one too many tree landings, if you know what I mean.
From my discussions with Sam Gray
No one (except Smoky Mountain) in the State is processing the Raw soybean oil into biodiesel in North Carolina but them. Now, it may have changed with in this year.
I believe the company you are talking about is Evans Environmental, and they were not in production last year. This year is their first year of production.
The Gaston County program takes the used kitchen grease to make their biodiesel. It works in Gaston County; because it isn't that large of a school district, but if put into place in other schools, they wouldn't be able to operate that way.
We need to incentivise North Carolina production that comes from North Carolina feedstock. So the money never leaves the State and real manufacturing jobs come to North Carolina.
Tree Landings -
Aren't you supposed to open the parachute before you hit the tree? - jes askin'
20/80. Which part is the 20 and which the 80?
Can biodiesel not be made 100% bio? What happens if you try?
Is it the engine's design or the fuel's ... I dunno ... energy capacity that isn't right?
Yes, do explain. I don't want to be 2nd to SC on anything. Ew!
B-20 Biodiesel.
20 percent biodiesel - 80 percent petroleum.
Now, engines can run B100, but B100 runs cleaner than any other fuel, so it has a tendancy to breakdown gaskets and tubing. It requires modifications to the engine to run B100.
Thanks.
That's as I suspected.
Rather like that 'red' antifreeze that only works in 'red' antifreeze cars, eh?
B100 does not require mods
Contrary to the earlier post by jjsmith (aka Sam Gray perhaps of Smoky Mtn?), you can run B100 in most newer diesel vehicles with no modifications. I've been running B100 homebrew Ne in a 98 Jetta TDI for several years and tens of thousands of miles with no problem. Older cars with rubber fuel lines and gaskets need to be replaced with a synthetic material like Viton but newer vehicles are already compatible and the fuel works great.
As for the school biod debate, I don't see why its such a big deal to allocate a mere $5m to get schools involved in alternative fuels and to educated countless students on the benefits of alternative fuels. "jjsmith" seems conflicted on this one - comes across more as an industry lobbyist than a true advocate for biofuels. Next thing he'll probably want to outlaw making biofuels at home. That's true rubbish!
mere $5m
There were a lot of questions around that topic.
*is $5 million enough to get the job done, or merely 'started'
*space requirements
*hazardous materials around children
*where/which schools
*would schools have enough raw material or would they have to buy material to input
*would schools have to hire new people to do this
Yeah, count me in the conflicted column.
That's cute...
I am my own individual.
As I said earlier, I was speaking in general. Plus, the majority of buses in the school fleets are not newer engines and their warranties do not cover B100. The state will not put a product in its vehicles that could void the warranty. Sure, using B100 wouldn't void the warranty if it was in reference to something biodiesel didn't do, but leave it to the manufacturers to claim it did.
Forgot to add
I don't care about people making it at home. I just get extremely reticent when government gets inovled in manufacturing products.
And there are no industry lobbyists for biofues in north carolina. Why don't you engage in the conversation instead of throwing around baseless accusations.
I'm playing a little catchup
on this subject, so you can take what I say with a grain of sugar. :)
The 20% is the biodiesel part, which is the minimum mixture that can (supposedly) produce a cleaner-burning fuel, while extending the use we get out of the fossil fuel. And yes, you can run up to 100% bio which only returns to the atmosphere the carbon that was recently (by the plants) removed from the atmosphere, making your emissions an even trade with the environment.
But there are both environmental and humanitarian issues at stake here, which really is off-topic from the discussion about state funding for projects that take away precious business from private companies, but I'm going to say something anyway.
One of the reasons I spoke (on another thread) about keeping the entire process domestic, is about America's insatiable appetite for fuel, and how that can impact the rest of the world in the age of biofuels. We've talked about sugar cane vs corn, but an even bigger (and scarier) source for ethanol is palm oil. How do you get it, especially in the volume biofuels would demand? You clear rainforests. Which is a whole 'nother discussion.
And then there's the food issue. If biodiesel usage skyrockets, and if we move towards a higher concentration of bio in the mixture, it could (probably would) literally take food out of the mouths of the poor, some even in the U.S., but a lot in the third world. There is more than enough arable land in the world to feed everybody several times over, but we still lose millions of people annually due to starvation and malnutrition. Why? Because there's not enough money in their pockets to justify a concerted effort to grow the crops. But...if rich Americans need fuel for their SUVs, that's a different story.
Can you see that in your mind? Can you see rail-thin children toiling in soy or rapeseed fields in Africa, or wide swaths of rainforests in South America burning, to make way for cash crops to feed the American fuel-guzzling machine? I can, which is why I hope Biodiesel is merely a stage in the process that ends with hydrogen or some other, much better solution.
That is a major part of the biofuels game
To produce a domestic energy source that will be capable of supporting america's energy needs. Now that said, biofuels are just the stepping stone. getting off petroleum is one of the most major steps we need to make in order to make the next advance in fuel development.
I agree,
and I hope you can understand my reticence about relying on the private sector to pursue this business without becoming myopic and totally profit-driven. All too often, what originates as a short-term compromise to achieve a long-term goal leads to a new reality in itself, and that lofty goal is forgotten.
Environmentally speaking, I am concerned that utilizing biowaste is not the primary source for making biofuels. It's maybe not as clean-burning or as efficient as crops grown specifically for fuel, but the advantages of reusing wastes have to be represented in the equation. Producers may talk about being environmentally conscious, but when the dollars and cents start getting compared, all of a sudden it's not such a good idea.
What am I saying? By pursuing legislation to aid the industry, you are basically bringing the Public sector into the business. It's a marriage of sorts, which means each will look after the other. It's not just about bringing a few score jobs to an area that just lost 300 to outsourcing (grrr), it has to be more comprehensive than that. Helping farmers find non-subsidized markets for their crops is a start, but this industry also has an opportunity (responsibility?) to positively impact waste disposal too.
If you want to be green, you have to be GREEN, you dig? It's an extremely complex and many-faceted issue, and efforts to piece it out and deal with individual elements often create even more problems than before.
I know you know this, jj, I just like seeing my own words in print. :)