It's the class warfare, stupid!

This timely and on-target diary over at the great Orange Satan is a must read.

The author's statement that the debate on our economic crisis ...

... has been quite successfully presented as a fight by the hard working and virtuous, to not pay for the lazy and wasteful...

is reflected here time and time again by "conservatives."

The super-rich corporations and individuals who don't pay their equitable share of taxes or share the other burdens of our society (like military service) are laughing all the way to the bank while middle class and poor conservatives carry their freight for them and attack those with whom they have the most in common... The Right has done a really good job of getting the citizenry to argue with each other and avert their gaze from the financial rape going on behind the curtain. And the media? Too boring for them to care. Soon, it won't be will be the only story.


What is equitable?

Can you please define what you mean as "super rich"? Can you also define what you consider to be equitable taxes? The rich and the middle class are paying taxes, many people don't pay any federal taxes and yet they still get a tax refund.

What do you suggest? Are you advocating a flat tax? Don't ask the middle class to pay anymore taxes, we are already soaked enough!

I know that some corporations don't pay any tax and I don't agree with that at all. GE, which is very cozy with Obama, pays no corporate taxes. Other companies are outsourcing work to other countries and they pay no taxes there. I would like to see this fixed and provide incentives for bringing those jobs back to this country.

Equitable taxes?

30 profitable companies spent more on federal lobbying than taxes 2008 through 2010. All but one, FedEx, paid no federal tax and actually received tax rebates. Many were energy companies including Duke Energy which had profits of $5.475 Billion, yet paid no taxes and received rebates totaling $216 Million while spending $17 Million on lobbying. Source: Public Campaign

Yes it is shameful.

All corporations should be paying taxes. I think Stan was referring to individual taxes, but maybe I'm wrong.

Yes Frank, I can.

Equitable, as in today's tax structure, means that capital gains and dividends and interest are taxed at the same rates as earned income. We can argue about what amount of that kind of income, or earned income, ought to be exempt from tax in order to fairly and reasonably distribute the load between the haves and have-nots. It seems equitable to me that if a working class family can't deduct the interest on a car loan, the wealthy shouldn't be able to deduct the interest paid on a yacht loan. often in the eye of the beholder. However, these charts created by E.N. Wolff in 2010 (an economist at NYU) make it pretty clear that the top 1 % is certainly super rich and the next 19 % are too. LINK the originals (easier to read with explanations..

Table 1: Distribution of net worth and financial wealth in the United States, 1983-2007
Total Net Worth
Top 1 percent Next 19 Bottom 80 percent
1983 33.8% 47.5% 18.7%
1989 37.4% 46.2% 16.5%
1992 37.2% 46.6% 16.2%
1995 38.5% 45.4% 16.1%
1998 38.1% 45.3% 16.6%
2001 33.4% 51.0% 15.6%
2004 34.3% 50.3% 15.3%
2007 34.6% 50.5% 15.0%

Financial Wealth
Top 1 percent Next 19 Bottom 80 percent
1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%
1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%
1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%
1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%
1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%
2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%
2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%
2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%

I'm not going to get into an endless argument about the EIC or other things that make it possible for people to pay no Federal Income Tax and yet get a refund. What you can accept is that these people DO pay taxes... Federal and State and Local...and at the same rates as everyone else. And, these are the people that can least afford it.

Stan Bozarth

Are you saying all capital gains?

Because if you do, then you are punishing the middle class as well. You are basically penalizing people who save for retirement.

Oh, Frank...jeebus...

The laws can be written to exclude certain amounts of income or dividends/capital gains in retirement accounts that contain less than $XXX. I'm talking about the RICH like Hedge Fund people who earn billions and pay almost nothing.

Stan Bozarth

On that I can agree

People who earn billions should pay their share of taxes and leave the middle class alone!

So you support tax reform...

I do too and I agree with you regarding the deductions. There should be no interest deduction for a yacht or a second vacation home. It's hard for me to relate to those percentages you cited. I tend to think in terms of earnings per year.

I'm of the belief that everybody should pay some federal taxes and if they pay none, they should not get a refund check. I also think the middle class is about tapped out with regards to taxes.

I just told you Frank...they DO

pay Federal TAX. It's called Social Security and the Medicare Tax...and if they die they don't get anything back. Are you dense or what?

Stan Bozarth

A couple of comments

Half of Americans don't pay taxes. This is a favorite of mine. While it is true that some working Americans don't pay Federal income tax, it is certainly not true that "half of Americans don't pay taxes." Start with the fact that 24% of Americans are under age 18, and another 13% are age 65 or older. So that means that only about 63% of Americans are of "working age." Then, consider that only about 60% of the working age population have jobs....

American companies pay the highest corporate income tax in the world. The US has a high corporate tax rate (35% on profits). But as has been noted, practically no businesses pay the 35% rate, because of the loophole-ridden tax code.

Super-rich. The top 1/10th of 1 percent (incomes starting at $11 million, including some 14,000 families) take in 5% of the total income in the United States. The top 5% has a household income of more than $180,000. Half the income goes to households with more than $100,000 in income. The top 1% (incomes starting at $386,000) enjoy 22% of the income. Median household income adjusted for inflation in 2010 was $49,445, 7% lower than in 1999.


The measure of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little. - FDR

Deep, deep denial

is what keeps middle and lower class conservatives from rejecting the Republicons that are being used to strip us all of our wealth. The progressive America that was in our grasp at the middle of the 20th century, has been stripped away so gradually by trickle-down, war-without-funding, squeeze-the-little-guy, greed-drunken policies that we didn't see it coming. The truth is too horrible to face so the average Republican supporter wraps him/herself in as many layers of myth, FOXnews and lie as possible.

The left is in denial

it doesn't occur to the left that it's the policies that they advocate which is driving middle and lower class conservatives away from them. Fox news is just playing the fiddle. The left takes no responsibilty for itself, it's always somebody else's fault. I see that a lot with Obama too.

Hard working Americans are tired of the spending ways of the left. They see the American dream fading away. The madness has to stop. If you think the Tea Party movement is going to just fade away, you are deluding yourself.

You are deluded Frank

and thanks for playing......

Although many here are having fun with you

being so, I just don't understand why you keep posting here. I guess some people just like the attention.

You go ahead Stan...

and denigrate me for having opposing viewpoints if that will make you feel better. It's like water on a duck's back from my side.

I don't mind opposing views. It's just that I've met doorknobs

smarter than you. You're a conduit for Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and the sad and maddening part is, you're being duped and don't realize it.

Stan Bozarth

And I've met toasters with more ....

sense than you have. You are the one being duped by the George Soros, machine and you know it. Group think, that is the key word for yourself.

Wow, that's original Frank

If you don't like the general "group think" here, why do you stay? Oh, wait, you're one of those nasty trolls that actually like being denigrated. What happened, did you get kicked out from under your bridge? Apparently you don't know this, but there is a world wide web that we all have access to. If we wanted your Faux news opinion, we'd give it to you.


what makes me a troll and you not? I'm entitled to my own viewpoint as you are. You have a high opinion of yourself if you only think your viewpoints are correct. What are you a legend in your own mind? When you engage in discussions between people, both sides learn from the other. It sharpens our own positions by discussing with others who disagree. Do all of your friends agree with you? What gives you the right to claim that all of my opinions are from Fox News? Very presumptious on your part to make such a statement.

I don't need anyone to give me my opinion as you obviously do. By the way who is that we you keep referring to? Is that a rat in your pocket or something?


The 'we' is the rest of us here in this "group think" party you speak of. What makes you a troll and not me is that you are not a beloved member of this Blue group. You only come here to yell louder than everyone and insist that we hear your opinion.

I often discuss politics with people of all opinions and as long as they aren't regurgitated Faux news talking points, I keep listening.

Oh and Ferret Face, you can keep your pet rats. :)

The good thing about Frank

is that he, and others like him, conclusively prove the theory of evolution. No loving God would have wasted 2 seconds of the 6 creative days working on something so flagrantly stupid. I see it now...a pile of lizard shit...infused with sunlight and oxygen...over the years evolving to....conservatives. Rick Perry got the nice hair, Newt got a beer gut and the morals of a hamster in heat, Santorum...well, he kinda got left out all the way around...Paul, he got the no-pity gene, and Romney...well he got the mesomorph genes and a silver spoon up his waz. What did Bachman get? I'm outa steam. Quick, the brain bleach!

Stan Bozarth


note. Are you actually trying to be funny? Don't bother, your humor fails pitifully. It is striking however, with your air of self righteouness. This what we refer to as the bitter, close minded left.

You mock the Republican candidates and that is understandable. Your leader is nothing to brag about is he? I've seen better leaders in the boy scouts. But he does enjoy fine vacations.


Don't make me shut down comments.