Report: FL-13 and NC-8 defeats related

Via the increasingly Ex Files:

This post on Scoop about the similarities between Larry Kissell's loss in NC-8 and Christine Jennings' challenged loss in FL-13 popped up via Crooks & Liars:

While Jennings makes a very strong case for a voided election and new vote in Florida, the case becomes virtually unassailable when reviewing results from North Carolina. At the same time, the North Carolina 8th results, reviewed in the context of the election contest analysis of Florida’s 13th, makes it abundantly clear that the loser, Kissell, should have won in almost any scenario other than voting machine malfunction.

and further on:

Any serious evaluation of the Jennings election contest by Congress leads right to North Carolina’s Mecklenburg County. iVotronic touch screens were used in the Jennings race and three Congressional races in Mecklenburg. That county holds the answers to both the Jennings contest and a resolution of another 2006 travesty, the loss of Democrat Larry Kissell in that North Carolina’s 8th Congressional District.

I'm just sayin'. . .


If I lived in NC-8

I'd have one of those Larry Kissell is my Congressman bumperstickers.

spilt milk

Im proud of Larry for ignoring something he couldnt change either way and marching on. In 2008 he will do well enough that no machine could steal it from him if they tried.

"Keep the Faith"

Split milk?

HBO show! Saving Democracy is not here anymore!

I'm just sayin'. . .*kmr

Batshit! Larry got screw along with a few others in the last election in this state. At least 34 smaller counties were rigged.

voting machine malfunction.*kmr

The machines didn't malfunction. That was the excuse. The Repub establishment can still rig... Paper ballots only if you want a voice! Other than that, they will continue to steal in little chip shots.


I didn't say the stuff in blue, that was from the article I linked to.

Evil Mo FO's?

that was from the article I linked to.*kmr

I know that! Nothing personal. The point is still being made. "They" can screw with the system. These people are just evil. Until one realizes that you are dealing with a bunch of evil bastards. This crap will continue until one exposes it.

Just saw that

We had a combination in NC-11 (14-1/2 counties). Buncombe (the largest block of votes in the district) and another five counties had optical scan machines with paper ballots. There were iVotronics in the other counties. We had only one report of iVotronic vote switching (Shuler vote switched to Taylor), which the voter a) spotted because of the tape printout, and b) got to work right with the help of the election workers on about the third try. That was the one report, in Graham county, I think. They reported the exact same problem in the Miami Herald, though, and a couple of other states. The under-voting only showed up later.

Our (winning) vote margin was pretty fudge-proof, and the mix of machines makes it hard to make a comparison with NC-8, but I never trusted the iVotronic.

That person is wrong

She's using the data that includes mail in absentee ballots and provisional ballots in the turnout figures. Wrong figure to use in the calculation. The undervote was on the Ivotronic was 4%. I have to get my piece finished before this gets out of hand. already is out of hand.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

I doubt

anyone from Larry's campaign is ever going to give the tinfoil hats something to be latch onto.

Eventually people will let it go when they realize that it doesnt help the campaign.

"Keep the Faith"

That's just it, Blue

They aren't letting it go. It just keeps getting bigger and bigger. It isn't true. These people don't even know which numbers to use. Math is dangerous in the wrong hands.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Want me to mail you the original analysis

I think everybody is taking off from the spreadsheet I did to disprove the absentee undervote thing ... my analysis got passed around and became the basis for a lot of these.

If anybody wants to get a handle on how confusing this is, I had to explain the absentee vote thing to a few Observer people. However, there is still a very interesting (albeit smaller) undervote issue that persists. I'm doing a Political Science-based analysis of it that will be the real be all, end all :-P (no offense, SD). BTW, I'm not doing this analysis as a campaigner or a Sore Loserman, just as a curious political scientist.

I always wanted to be the avenging cowboy hero—that lone voice in the wilderness, fighting corruption and evil wherever I found it, and standing for freedom, truth and justice. - Bill Hicks

No offense taken

I'm doing a common sense, I've-been-doing-this-for-too -many-years analysis. No science involved...just a lot of durned math. :)

You and Blue South make me smile. Really, you do. I have high hopes for the two of you and I hope some day I get to vote for you for office.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

an interesting thought

From one PS student to another. I would like to see if there is any correlation between name recognition and undervoting.

"Keep the Faith"

Banning DRE touchscreens - the support HR811

There is no effort in the Legislature to ban DRE touchscreens even though the printed paper trail on the DREs failed as much as 9% of the time on the DREs in some counties.

There is an effort at the federal level to have the same tough law we have in NC. It's HR811 - the Rush Holt bill. It requires either op-scan paper ballots, or a paper trial on DRE touchscreen machines in the short run, and to require that hand-marked paper ballots be made available to any voter who wants to use them after 2012 - which will effectively get rid of DRE touchscreen voting machines. It will also require that all states have the same sort of tough auditing requirements that helped make NC the #1 state for ensuring accurate vote counting in the entire nation - according to the non-profit and non-partisan Brennan Center.

Notice I did not say we are perfect. We still have problems, and the Kissell race is a perfect example of that.

But while we know how much better the op-scan system works compared to DRE touchscreens, there are people in NC who are fighting our law at the state level and also fighting against the federal law. Both Gary Bartlett - Executive Director of the NC State Board of Elections, and George Gilbert - Elections Director of Guildford County BOE - are claiming that HR811 is too tough and can't be forced on the states. That is the same claim they made in 2005 about our tough law. They were wrong then, and they are wrong now.

So if you want to see DRE touch screen machines banned, and have tough auditing standards for all the states, call or fax your congressperson today or tomorrow early and ask them to support HR811 with a ban on DRE touchscreen machines. Ask them to support HR811 even if the DRE ban doesn't pass. The tough audits are better than the system we have now, and eventually DREs will go the way of the dodo under the law without the immediate ban.

Here is some info on how to support HR811:

Urgent: Please Fax these NEW one-page fliers in support of HR811 to Congress

Dear Friends,

Fire up the phone lines and fax machines again! H.R. 811 is coming up for a final vote in the House of Representatives next week.

We must sustain our efforts. Paid lobbyists opposing federal election reform are not resting.

Your member of Congress has been asked to let House leadership know how they intend to vote by Tuesday at 4 p.m. We MUST get our response to Members of Congress by Monday at the latest - by tomorrow, Friday, is best!

Urge your Representative to "Vote YES on HR 811 and NO on an unfunded mandate amendment to the bill." H.R. 811 is fully funded according to its Congressional Budget Office score. Further, the content of H.R.811 is exempt from the unfunded mandate statute, but that has not stopped the opponents of independent election audits from offering an unfunded mandate amendment that would gut the bill's 2008 deadlines.

As a result of lobbying by groups like the National Association of Counties, last week the House Rules committee postponed bringing H.R. 811 to the House floor for a vote.

Keep calling and faxing your member of Congress; urge them to vote "YES" for H.R. 811 and "NO" on the unfunded mandate amendment.

PLEASE FAX or hand-deliver one, or all, of our three NEW one-page fliers on HR811 to your US House Member.

Designed to be able to be used as separate one-pagers, please deliver one or all of these to your US Representative as you judge best:

Vote "YES" on HR811 flyers are here:

Page #1. Rebuttal of the National Association of Counties' (NACo) arguments
against HR811 page one of

Page #2. A list of some ORGANIZATIONS SUPPORTING HR811
page 2 of

About the Anti-HR811 Organizations

Page #3. Shows why these groups may have motivation to oppose HR811

Please fax one or all of these to your US Representative by tomorrow, Friday, September 14, if possible - by Monday latest.

Find your Representative's contact information here: or Call Capitol Hill Switchboard: 202-224-3121 and ask to be transferred to your US Representative's Office.

It is particularly important to contact the Rules Committee Members who were lobbied by H.R. 811 opponents to keep the bill from coming to the floor last week.

Phone & Fax numbers of the Rules Committee members:

U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Rules
H-312 The Capitol
Washington, DC 20515


2469 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Phone: (202) 225-3615
Fax: (202) 225-7822

438 Cannon Building
Phone: (202) 225-6101
Fax: (202) 225-5759

2353 Rayburn Office Building
Tel: (202) 225-1313
Fax: (202) 225-1171

222 Cannon House Office Building
Phone: (202) 225-7163
Fax: (202) 225-0566

435 Cannon Building
Phone: (202) 225-6131
Fax: 225-0819

1404 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone:(202) 225-4115

317 Cannon House Office Building
Phone: (202)225-3376
Fax: (202)225-5652

327 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Phone: 202-225-3665
Fax: 202-225-1891

1721 Longworth House Office Building
Phone: (202) 225-3401
Fax: (202) 225-2266


Ranking Minority Member
233 Cannon HOB
Washington, DC 20515
Office (202) 225-2305
Fax (202) 225-7018

2244 Rayburn House Office Building
(202) 225-4211

1214 Longworth
(202) 225-5816
Fax: (202) 225-3251

1514 Longworth House Bldg.
(202) 225-2231
(202) 225-5878 fax


Thank you for keeping up the push to ensure the integrity of our
democratic elections at this critical juncture in history!



Details on how HR 811 would impact North Carolina

A short, nearly exhaustive list of problems caused by using
touch-screen electronic-ballot DRE voting

A list of DRE problems by John Hopkins University Computer Scientist
Avi Rubin who is an expert in the security of electronic voting, the
director of the National Science Foundation's project ACCURATE Center,
and is also an election judge in Baltimore County.

"Voters Have Reason to Worry â€" A Response to Election Officials and
Others Who Urge Voters to Trust"

E-Voting Ballots Not Secret; Vendors Don't See Problem, August 20th,
2007 by Princeton Computer Science Professor Ed Felten

Cost Comparisons between Using Optical Scan versus DRE Voting Systems: and select "Voting Systems"

Amendment Suggestions for the Ballot Integrity Act

Sweet Jesus.

Not another one! I should buy stock in Reynold's.

In all seriousness...I WISH there were some sort of electronic hanky-ness going on in NC-08 so we could keep fighting to get Larry in that seat. But there just isn't. And trying to create one here only hurts legitimate claims like the one down in FL-13.

Larry Kissell is MY Congressman

Sour grapes?

So Kissel got screwed by the democrats on the Mecklenburg County commission and the chair of the election board is a democrat, too. The voting machines and absentees were corrupted and they didn't know? Did they want Hayes to win?

So how does this work again?

How does it work? YOU make it work!

You get involved in your county Democratic party, and you help them appoint the new members of the BOE. And you petition the County Commissioners to dump DRE in favor of Op-scan.

We did it here in Wake County - we got a county commission of 5 Republicans and 2 Dems to vote 7-0 against the Wake BOE plan to use DREs only for Early Voting. And that BOE had 2 Dems and one Republican - like all county BOEs have in NC.

And if you don't like who is on your BOE, and your county chair won't budge - you replace him or her. We did it here in Wake County - replaced an incumbent party chair with a progressive Dem (the political director for the CWA no less) in a lopsided 3-2 victory.

So it can be done. You just have to get up and do it.


And if you don't like who is on your BOE, and your county chair won't budge - you replace him or her.

Did you replace your BOE or your county chair and how did you do it? I'm asking because I'm in Guilford County...I'm sure you know the rest.

Have you called to support H. Res 333 Impeach Cheney Today? call 202-224-3121 & ask for your Congress member by name


County chairs are elected every two years at the county convention. In some counties, there are some colorful campaigns. The BOE members are suggested by the county chairs. It is split Dem/Rep., and right now, because the Governor is a democrat, Dems have a slight advantage. In Moore County, the Exec. Committee (which consists of precinct chairs and vice chairs, officers, etc.) nominated and voted on our BOE reps. We've all been very satisfied with our BOE (both Dem and Rep alike.) It hasn't been the contentious thing that it has been in other counties. Our Director of Elections, Glenda Clendenin, is conscientious about her job, and very very good at it. Her staff is helpful to county parties and candidates alike. Her goal seems to be sure that as many people who are eligible to vote in Moore County have the opportunity to do so.

We're blessed. :)

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Thanks lcoud,

You say BOE members are suggested by the county chair, who actually gets to appoint him or her? And how does the reverse of that work (how do we get rid of him)?

Have you called to support H. Res 333 Impeach Cheney Today? call 202-224-3121 & ask for your Congress member by name

I'm not sure.

Are you looking to get rid of the county party chair, or the county BOE chair? It's two different processes, I think.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Well, both if the chair is the one who

appointed and now won't get rid of the BOE chair.

Have you called to support H. Res 333 Impeach Cheney Today? call 202-224-3121 & ask for your Congress member by name

I'm not sure sure it's quite that simple. Is anything ever?

The county chair appoints some members of the board of elections. The republicans get to appoint members to that board as well. That group gets together and I suspect they are the ones that hire the Director of Elections.

So - to get rid of a County Party chair with whom you're unsatisfied, you run against him or her, or field another candidate to run at the next county convention - which will be in 2009. And then you make sure you are involved in the process to select the reps to the county boe.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

The county chair, with the approval of the

county exec committee suggests 3 people to fill the 2 slots. The suggestions go to the NCDP chair, now Jerry Meek. The state chair 99% of the time picks the top 2 nominees to formally submit the names to the .... ?? governor or state BOE ????who 99% of the time approve the people nominated by the NCDP chair. That last part is a bit fuzzy.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

So would it take the Governor to revoke

that appointment? And how often is that process that you described repeated?

Have you called to support H. Res 333 Impeach Cheney Today? call 202-224-3121 & ask for your Congress member by name

Revokation I know nothing about.

I would suggest contacting the state BOE. Or you might email Jerry Meek. He is very accessible and knowledgeable about most matters, and even if he doesn't know he would very know who to contact.

The process happens in odd years. The appointments are made in June and confirmed in July (IIRC). So whoever in on your BOE was just put there a couple months ago. My guess is that the sooner the better if you want to try to get someone removed. BOE members attend training sessions in order to conduct a fair and impartial canvass. As 2008 will be a big year, the more training and the more familiar your BOE menbers are with each other the better.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?